Moves towards peace look increasingly rebellious. Economics, for all its blather, is based on staying ahead in order to stay ahead. I would expect drones to be in use for terrorist purpose long before Amazon deliveries.
On Thursday, 16 October 2014 16:14:17 UTC+1, Allan Heretic wrote: > > There is a lot of information there. And I really don't approve of it > either. But there is a lot of information there. > My thoughts of revolution comes the idea of creating an idealistic > community that can work together with other communities to guide the rest > of the world into a better kinder way of life. > > > Allan > Living Soul > > -----Original Message----- > From: Molly <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Thu, 16 Oct 2014 4:57 PM > Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: Religion as rebellion > > I think its era of secrecy was to avoid the Inquisition. Because I was > able to find a wealth of information on it, I doubt it is secret anymore. > But we could both be wrong. Or we could both be right. > > On Thursday, October 16, 2014 10:40:00 AM UTC-4, Allan Heretic wrote: >> >> Since when did God need a secret society to reveal what is not hidden? >> Since creation is made from divine essence (Hindu's uncreated being) >> there is no separation to start with. So there is no need for a secret >> society to reveal a separation that doesn't exist. >> Though a common thread of belief is useful why not use the guideline know >> to all souls? >> >> >> Allan >> Living Soul >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Molly <[email protected]> >> To: [email protected] >> Sent: Thu, 16 Oct 2014 12:42 PM >> Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: Religion as rebellion >> >> Indeed, Neil, this is the rebellion that brings along with it the promise >> of heaven on earth. "Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father >> in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake." The Rosicrucians >> created a religions sect based on crossing that threshold of separation. >> >> On Thursday, October 16, 2014 5:25:59 AM UTC-4, archytas wrote: >>> >>> Mastering the obvious might be one of the skills. Under the radar feels >>> as right as pablum and naked clothing. The Stoics had good arguments >>> against slavery - the speed of the spiritual can seem slow. I've been >>> thinking quite a lot about the 'social model of disability' of late - odd >>> in a way as I don't think it works for disability. The idea in its strong >>> sense is that society rather than impairment creates disability. Much to >>> be said for this in a weaker form - one only has to think of stairs and >>> someone in a wheelchair. In a broader sense, we see a lot of disabling >>> techniques in biological networks - parasites can even cause sterility in >>> mushrooms - and even in insect workers there is a caste system based on >>> aggression (nine levels in some ants) - we see similar in mammals and >>> humans. >>> >>> Molly's words are quite brilliant and we should not neglect the efforts >>> of those who have tried - indeed we could do with much better >>> understandings of how such as women's equality have come about. The sword >>> and musket bit of me might still want a place on Allan's boat. >>> >>> Thermodynamics (in modern form) is really about 'what works and what >>> won't'. The modern form, in some ways, is a reaction against 'creation >>> events' to get better understanding of how events are constructed without >>> the constraints of big bang. There are attempts to apply this to the way >>> we live, to understand the 'flows'. The economics we have is mostly a >>> block to doing the right things - within it, Allan's plan needs the ocean >>> gyres to be full of 'gold' - there was once a project to harvest black >>> nodules of molybdenum via barges dredging the sea floor. It failed because >>> we found cheaper mines on land. Our gyre salvage has no value in economics >>> unless we can force the dumpers to pay. >>> >>> Religion had several rebellions against 'temple money' and blood debts. >>> The temples have long been banks, increasingly working their Undead >>> practices from the shadows. The answer is 'positive money' created for >>> projects we decide we want to do - though this is all-too-easy to say. In >>> the US, this theory is called modern monetary theory (MMT) - the argument >>> is more than a century old with little sign of transfer to practice (time >>> banks, local economic transfer schemes, Bitcoin, block chain technology). >>> >>> Spiritual rebellion might require a rebellion against the old separation >>> of god from Caesar's world of the coin. >>> >>> On Wednesday, 15 October 2014 23:07:38 UTC+1, Molly wrote: >>>> >>>> Master of the obvious. I would say that each of the people mentioned >>>> gave it a good shot and effected many lives. They each had tremendous >>>> effects on the same generation. >>>> >>>> On Wednesday, October 15, 2014 5:13:30 PM UTC-4, Allan Heretic wrote: >>>>> >>>>> To call for revolution is easy, to create revolution is another. >>>>> Revolution is change .. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Allan >>>>> Living Soul >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Molly <[email protected]> >>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>> Sent: Wed, 15 Oct 2014 9:40 PM >>>>> Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: Religion as rebellion >>>>> >>>>> Martin Luther King Jr. called for a revolution of conscience. Grace >>>>> Lee Boggs, in the end, calls for a revolution of spirit. John Lennon >>>>> called >>>>> for a revolution of the mind. I find myself in agreement with all of >>>>> these. >>>>> http://youtu.be/SMEgGGnZ43Y >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Wednesday, October 15, 2014 1:33:53 PM UTC-4, Allan Heretic wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Seek the narrow path which few choose to follow. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Revolution is about change, the media loves the violent variety as do >>>>>> the politicians & weapons manufactures. No one in power wants real >>>>>> change. >>>>>> >>>>>> The Atlantic ocean is also available for a revolutionary micro-nation >>>>>> formation. We are talking revolution are we not? Questions come to >>>>>> creating >>>>>> a homeland, a self sustaining community with the ability to expand, >>>>>> feeding >>>>>> the population, international trade. It seems to me the easiest cover >>>>>> that >>>>>> would essentially go unnoticed would be cleaning up the ocean gyres. >>>>>> Extremely large ocean barges are available .. It would not be difficult >>>>>> to >>>>>> create vertical wind turbines with reef levels for handling higher winds >>>>>> speeds, hydroponics for food supply and raising fish for commercial >>>>>> trade. >>>>>> If you look at the skycat airship you have a simple potential >>>>>> freighter.. >>>>>> Tinnen out of the box. >>>>>> If you want revolution why not do it under the radar? >>>>>> >>>>>> Allan >>>>>> Living Soul >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: Molly <[email protected]> >>>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>>> Sent: Wed, 15 Oct 2014 1:06 PM >>>>>> Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: Religion as rebellion >>>>>> >>>>>> Religion could not break the spell because, like reason, it is >>>>>> steeped in duality. Nothing is smashed with a non dual viewpoint, all is >>>>>> included, but opposition falls away and with it, what we perceive to be >>>>>> fascists. I agree with your observation that much of this is fed like >>>>>> pablum, in expensive new age emperors clothing. Even that raises the >>>>>> questions for those who have never considered them. All just sign posts >>>>>> along the road. When your step creates the path, you may actually be on >>>>>> the path. Don't expect to see a crowd around you. >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wednesday, October 15, 2014 5:00:58 AM UTC-4, archytas wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> That would be worth believing in Allan. It's hard to work out what >>>>>>> rebellion is. I might break into the Freeze art sales event in London >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> smash up one of Facil's exhibits in the first of my series of Vandal >>>>>>> Art. >>>>>>> This might, in fact, merely be a marketing prank to draw attention to >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> Facilitator and increase the price of his stuff. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I've been looking into a weeding robot of late. Brilliant tech that >>>>>>> embodies the very hard, back-breaking work that requires more training >>>>>>> than >>>>>>> most might think for humans to do it. It's hard to retain labour for >>>>>>> such >>>>>>> tasks in western agriculture, so the work groups tend to need expensive >>>>>>> training every year. The real rebellion may come when we realise most >>>>>>> financial and management jobs are already embodied in technology - at >>>>>>> which >>>>>>> point we might see the end of the current work ethic. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The danger with higher plane thinking-achievement might be described >>>>>>> as fascist idolatry - something I also feel on god as authority. I'm >>>>>>> not >>>>>>> much convinced by 'introspection to the light' - feels like 'Chicken >>>>>>> Soup >>>>>>> for the Soul' too often. Yet doubt easily becomes another certainty. >>>>>>> I'm >>>>>>> for some kind of smash up, but this really is just vandalism unless we >>>>>>> really try to bring something better into place. Descartes had to say >>>>>>> that >>>>>>> a beneficent god would take care of us while we did radical evaluation >>>>>>> - >>>>>>> the Inquisition was on his back (in letters to mates he would point to >>>>>>> what >>>>>>> happened to Galileo and that he would fare worse as a Frenchman). The >>>>>>> current Inquisition is, of course, economics. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Christianity (before its modern descent to Xtianity) once seriously >>>>>>> considered whether Christ owned the clothes he wore (Wyclif), a very >>>>>>> radical question - though even this was subject to political >>>>>>> machination. >>>>>>> Plastic factories sourcing waste material from the Pacific are some >>>>>>> way >>>>>>> off. What of our ideology of private ownership when a bunch of >>>>>>> well-armed >>>>>>> aliens turn up and tell us they built the planet? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Religion and Reason both give us the problem of authority and >>>>>>> potential delusion. Who now would go on the streets as wave a flag for >>>>>>> Hitler, the shell-shocked lunatic? People did and we may be doing >>>>>>> something similar now. Could religion break the spell? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Tuesday, 14 October 2014 21:27:04 UTC+1, Allan Heretic wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I do think there is a true revolution occurring as we right. >>>>>>>> Creating a new direction. I think they will form small inter connected >>>>>>>> ¿internet? Working together for common good. There probably will be >>>>>>>> totally >>>>>>>> self sustaining probably cleaning up the ocean waste working at >>>>>>>> balancing >>>>>>>> the eco systems. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Allan >>>>>>>> Living Soul >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: archytas <[email protected]> >>>>>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>>>>> Sent: Tue, 14 Oct 2014 10:09 PM >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: Religion as rebellion >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Deconstruction and reconstruction have to go hand in hand - if we >>>>>>>> have to call them such at all. One of the rebellions I want to see is >>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>> our literature. Though art can descend to the likes of London's >>>>>>>> 'Freeze' >>>>>>>> art sales (kitsch rules), it has that anything goes potential. >>>>>>>> Literature >>>>>>>> is very formulaic at the moment, mostly copies of copies of a >>>>>>>> forgotten >>>>>>>> original - much like politics. I'm with Allan on the doing. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Tuesday, 14 October 2014 20:49:31 UTC+1, Allan Heretic wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> You are right religion is the basic foundation including all the >>>>>>>>> superstitions. The source of beliefs really does not matter. At this >>>>>>>>> point >>>>>>>>> for the greatest majority of the world's people that is what they >>>>>>>>> want. >>>>>>>>> Level 1 believe follow the rules. Level 2 people become connected >>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> aware others presence of a power greater than you are. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> How a person responds to the reality of the world in which they >>>>>>>>> live determines they spiritual development. Often times people say >>>>>>>>> one >>>>>>>>> thing then do another. It is the actions that carry weight. What you >>>>>>>>> believe longer matters. Atheism is a valid spiritual view point. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Allan >>>>>>>>> A Living Soul >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>> From: Molly <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>>>>>> Sent: Tue, 14 Oct 2014 5:52 PM >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: Religion as rebellion >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I wouldn't go so far as to say we are killing the planet, or be so >>>>>>>>> bold as to blame one thing like fossil fuel usage on climate change, >>>>>>>>> but I >>>>>>>>> do think Naomi has been swept along by a collective movement away >>>>>>>>> from top >>>>>>>>> down/bottom up change to something much more integrated. Human >>>>>>>>> evolution >>>>>>>>> becoming human being. These surges of collective movements all over >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> world, whether in China or Korea or Italy or New York, occurring for >>>>>>>>> various "reasons" are like a pulse through our collective blood >>>>>>>>> stream. >>>>>>>>> Have they always been, and we are only now aware of all of them >>>>>>>>> because of >>>>>>>>> technology - or are there more than ever? Is the pulse accelerating? >>>>>>>>> In >>>>>>>>> my view, our ability to recognize global happenings through >>>>>>>>> technology >>>>>>>>> expands our consciousness. But consciousness is. It doesn't evolve >>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>> change. We only feel that it does because we apply mental constructs >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> what we recognize in order to analyze, understand and communicate. >>>>>>>>> Here is >>>>>>>>> the ought from is. Here, I think, the deconstruction begins. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, October 14, 2014 10:24:12 AM UTC-4, archytas wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I like the idea in much the same way Molly, perhaps especially >>>>>>>>>> that of the dross falling away (perhaps from my short time in >>>>>>>>>> foundry >>>>>>>>>> work!). Current physics leaves us with 96% 'dark' - something >>>>>>>>>> (almost) >>>>>>>>>> beyond our senses and geometry, but still works such miracles as >>>>>>>>>> television, with relativity telling us such mundane stuff as how a >>>>>>>>>> lead >>>>>>>>>> acid battery produces far more energy than we'd expect from standard >>>>>>>>>> chemistry. This working in action with incomplete and possibly >>>>>>>>>> wrong >>>>>>>>>> theory in our best areas is much neglected. We know very little of >>>>>>>>>> social >>>>>>>>>> organisation (despite reams of literature) and the role of >>>>>>>>>> 'constructors' >>>>>>>>>> across science and society. What we do know is generally swamped by >>>>>>>>>> ignorance and the need to earn a crust in existing social order. I >>>>>>>>>> have to >>>>>>>>>> say the literature is not a 'how to manual'. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Grace asks ' are we prepared to develop a whole new form of >>>>>>>>>> solidarity economics emphasizing sustainability, mutuality, and >>>>>>>>>> local >>>>>>>>>> self-reliance?' Scientists have written on this for more than a >>>>>>>>>> century >>>>>>>>>> and it comes to a moral head in climate change, pollution and the >>>>>>>>>> cosmology >>>>>>>>>> of our plight (needs to leave the planet over time, be prepared for >>>>>>>>>> collisions). The facts have me convinced one can derive an ought >>>>>>>>>> from an >>>>>>>>>> is. Naomi Klein's 'This Changes Everything' has a lot of the facts. >>>>>>>>>> The >>>>>>>>>> rebellious turn for me would be religion free of what Tom Paine >>>>>>>>>> complained >>>>>>>>>> of (superstition), most notably inflicted on us now through >>>>>>>>>> pseudo-science >>>>>>>>>> like economics (highly religious in many senses including nine >>>>>>>>>> versions, >>>>>>>>>> all wrong) riddled with superstition and void of spiritual thought >>>>>>>>>> experiment and experience (data in a sense of what it could be to be >>>>>>>>>> human >>>>>>>>>> or post-human). >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, 14 October 2014 14:20:06 UTC+1, Molly wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> You really cover the gamut here, Neil, going round and round the >>>>>>>>>>> nut. Rebellion has been on my mind too lately, as one of the great >>>>>>>>>>> Detroiters, Grace Lee Boggs, lays in hospice. She spent her adult >>>>>>>>>>> life >>>>>>>>>>> spanning 8 decades organizing social activism locally in Detroit >>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>> nationally for many movements, civil rights and women's rights >>>>>>>>>>> among them. >>>>>>>>>>> I was excited to receive an award last month because she was on the >>>>>>>>>>> agenda >>>>>>>>>>> to receive a lifetime achievement award also but she sent a >>>>>>>>>>> representative >>>>>>>>>>> and her announcement came shortly afterward. Her story is quite >>>>>>>>>>> interesting >>>>>>>>>>> the deeper one digs into it. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Toward the end of her life she leaned less toward civil >>>>>>>>>>> disobedience and more toward spiritual coherence of groups, >>>>>>>>>>> actively and >>>>>>>>>>> quietly leading local groups to greater organization and standards >>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>> living. For me, her movement to peaceful rebellion was key as I >>>>>>>>>>> have always >>>>>>>>>>> moved thusly when called to do so. Working "with" not against in a >>>>>>>>>>> rebellion means organizing through the deconstruction, seeing past >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> chaos and predatory participants that inevitably enter into the >>>>>>>>>>> fray. >>>>>>>>>>> Moving in spirit during rebellion gets past the right and wrong and >>>>>>>>>>> into an >>>>>>>>>>> vision of peak organization for the group. The movement is movement >>>>>>>>>>> toward >>>>>>>>>>> the vision for everyone. A great deal of rubbish falls away in the >>>>>>>>>>> process. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> From my view, religion supports individuals and groups by >>>>>>>>>>> lending a structure to the seeking, until seeking is no longer >>>>>>>>>>> necessary. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, October 14, 2014 7:30:31 AM UTC-4, archytas wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> The 'Putinography' was subject to ridicule on our satirical >>>>>>>>>>>> show 'Have I Got News For You'. I have never been able to feel, >>>>>>>>>>>> say, Allan >>>>>>>>>>>> or Molly's religion or god, though I'm not really atheist, even if >>>>>>>>>>>> that's >>>>>>>>>>>> the answer I'd give on a survey. I don't get art with, say, >>>>>>>>>>>> Facil's eye >>>>>>>>>>>> either, and in science and maths know I don't visualise well but >>>>>>>>>>>> do sense >>>>>>>>>>>> patterns and have an almost religious demand for evidence - to the >>>>>>>>>>>> extent >>>>>>>>>>>> I'd say there is almost none in our courtrooms or what passes for >>>>>>>>>>>> public >>>>>>>>>>>> scrutiny. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Rebellion interests me firstly in the sense of its existence >>>>>>>>>>>> before the human mind. Even ants 'rebel' against their captors, >>>>>>>>>>>> killing >>>>>>>>>>>> their young, sometimes fighting against superior weapons >>>>>>>>>>>> technology (most >>>>>>>>>>>> slavers have mandibles like swords). The rebellion is not about >>>>>>>>>>>> freedom >>>>>>>>>>>> for the individual ants but their species. The rebels will die, >>>>>>>>>>>> but their >>>>>>>>>>>> species may prosper from the reduced slaving population. We tend >>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>> metaphors like 'co-evolution' and 'arms' races' in biology, but >>>>>>>>>>>> these are >>>>>>>>>>>> inadequate, transferring the all-too-human. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Religion, stripped of its institutionalism and rationalisation, >>>>>>>>>>>> seems a rebellion to peace and in and against nature at the same >>>>>>>>>>>> time. It >>>>>>>>>>>> is against self whilst also self-development. The language is >>>>>>>>>>>> almost >>>>>>>>>>>> impossible as we have barely learned the ambiguity and >>>>>>>>>>>> parochiality of >>>>>>>>>>>> language and are confused on originality. Mimicry is everywhere >>>>>>>>>>>> in nature >>>>>>>>>>>> - ants pretending to be spiders, spiders and beetles pretending to >>>>>>>>>>>> be ants >>>>>>>>>>>> - politicians pretending to be other than puppets of shadow >>>>>>>>>>>> control. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Monday, 13 October 2014 19:51:39 UTC+1, facilitator wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I believe some of this. However I deviate in that I believe >>>>>>>>>>>>> churches are for the individual to hide among or be counted in >>>>>>>>>>>>> the group. >>>>>>>>>>>>> This is even more true of the priest, Rabbi, Imam, etc. Saying >>>>>>>>>>>>> they are >>>>>>>>>>>>> for the masses requires a much wider brush that I can't paint >>>>>>>>>>>>> liberally >>>>>>>>>>>>> with. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Monday, October 13, 2014 12:27:43 PM UTC-4, Allan Heretic >>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Churches are for basically for the masses .. There is a basic >>>>>>>>>>>>>> need to believe or explain the unknown. Transition into >>>>>>>>>>>>>> spirituality does >>>>>>>>>>>>>> not take much. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Common religious views are a starting point from which to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> build ones spiritual view and experience. Within Catholicism >>>>>>>>>>>>>> there are >>>>>>>>>>>>>> basically 3 levels of spirituality. The first level , believe >>>>>>>>>>>>>> God is real >>>>>>>>>>>>>> go to church follow the rules. The second level is where people >>>>>>>>>>>>>> become >>>>>>>>>>>>>> aware of the presence of God, with him becoming a major part of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> their >>>>>>>>>>>>>> lives, with experiences like Molly spoke of not being uncommon. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Theses >>>>>>>>>>>>>> experiences being a driving force. The Third level the roll of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the church >>>>>>>>>>>>>> changes from spiritual guide to one of an observer and scribe. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> At this >>>>>>>>>>>>>> level these people are no longer the ' churches ' problem but >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that of God. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The official church very much likes these people as part of the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> church, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> providing assistance when possible. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Many centuries of observation allows the church to easily >>>>>>>>>>>>>> recognize the different levels. It really is an interesting >>>>>>>>>>>>>> source of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> study. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The English are among the greatest slavers in the world.. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Followed closely by islam. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Allan >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Living Soul >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: archytas <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Mon, 13 Oct 2014 4:18 PM >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Mind's Eye Re: Religion as rebellion >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've done much of the magic in the secret society bit (in >>>>>>>>>>>>>> what was once Zaire). My friend (a tribal chief) and I were >>>>>>>>>>>>>> able to repeat >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the magic in my university office. Sadly, I get rather the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> reverse >>>>>>>>>>>>>> experience of Molly in our churches. Jean-Claude was a >>>>>>>>>>>>>> thorough-going >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Marxist, though detested the Lenin-Mao lines. I tend to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> anarchist-mutualism myself and am never sure about Molly's >>>>>>>>>>>>>> higher plane - >>>>>>>>>>>>>> my sense is it emerges from the material conditions of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> possibility. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sleeping near ants is not recommended. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I was thinking of the potentials of religion to free us from >>>>>>>>>>>>>> biological structuration, perhaps in the sense of a poison-cure. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> It has >>>>>>>>>>>>>> both higher plane experience and chronic rationalisation - the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> latter, say, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> in jihad, crusades and the ant-like 'let's kill the Yazidi and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> steal their >>>>>>>>>>>>>> women' (or Numbers 31). Many of our terms have this pharmikon >>>>>>>>>>>>>> status, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> though we allow them to dominate in 'good' form - education, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> government, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> freedom ... >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> John Brown is often presented as a deluded religionist, but >>>>>>>>>>>>>> at least wasn't talking western philosophy at the top table of a >>>>>>>>>>>>>> slave >>>>>>>>>>>>>> economy. Religion these days seems silent on material matters. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Monday, 13 October 2014 14:16:26 UTC+1, Molly wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I suppose that it does provide a place to hide in community >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from the mundane and economic realities of the lower and middle >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> classes if >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one is necessary. I've always found a church community to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> provide its own >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cultural limitations based on what all human groups offer, and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not much >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> insight into faith or support in crisis of faith. At the head >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of each >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> church is a human being, struggling as we all do to make sense >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of it all. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The tone of this culture depends invariable on the tone of the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> leader and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they deviate more or less from the greater church dictates. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mass itself is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> little more than a ritual although once understood as a process >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to higher >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> consciousness, can take you there, I've experienced it, and not >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just in a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Catholic mass. Participating tribal ritual drumming can lead >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to ecstasies. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Much if not all of this is lost on most congregations, in my >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> experience. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Monday, October 13, 2014 7:03:02 AM UTC-4, archytas wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Many of our terms for freedom have religious origin in the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rough phrase 'freedom from debt' - more and much wider than >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than Xtian >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> kicking over the tables of the money-lenders. There have been >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> many debt >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> jubilees in history, often on the death of a 'king'. Debt >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> slavery is and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> has been much wider in human communities than most seem to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> know. We are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not widely informed on biology and anthropology in this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> regard. Religion >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can raise the best and worst in us. Much of it raises the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> notion of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> adherents as some kind of chosen people, sometimes restricted >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in-group blood line. The Yazidi are such an example. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chimps seem to have a form of 'religion' connected with the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> seasons - as many of our belief systems. I saw footage of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> some southeast >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Asian spiders this morning - they lay eggs in a central tower >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> surrounded by >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a henge - immediately bringing Stonehenge to my mind, though >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they don't >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hack stones to shape. Religion raises Facil's 'we might both >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (all) be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrong' phrase to my mind, something often missing in our >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> argument despite >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> knowledge that we can make many equally powerful arguments >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about the same >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> stuff (Sextus Empiricus). To judge between arguments we need >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> something >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mystical (religious). I say this as a scientist knowing magic >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wands don't >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> work. Religion could be rebellion, a postmodern moment, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> oversimplifying to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the extreme, of incredulity towards metanarratives like >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> government, law and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> economics - a dreamtime against material and spiritual >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> debt-rules. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Black holes have recently become 'grey', but dreamtime >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> might challenge the geometry we use. Global warming and much >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> else on >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pollution challenges us to think 'This Changes Everything' >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (Naomi Klein) - >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the economics of 'we can never afford to do the right things' >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in my view. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So what does religion offer on the postmodern moment of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rebellion? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from >>>>>>>>>>>>>> it, send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>>> Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>> Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>> >>>>>> --- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> --- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>> >>>> -- >> >> --- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> ""Minds Eye"" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > -- > > --- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > ""Minds Eye"" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. 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