Consciousness is might be a case of dark matter is. Not that I know. On Tuesday, 14 October 2014 16:52:24 UTC+1, Molly wrote: > > I wouldn't go so far as to say we are killing the planet, or be so bold as > to blame one thing like fossil fuel usage on climate change, but I do think > Naomi has been swept along by a collective movement away from top > down/bottom up change to something much more integrated. Human evolution > becoming human being. These surges of collective movements all over the > world, whether in China or Korea or Italy or New York, occurring for > various "reasons" are like a pulse through our collective blood stream. > Have they always been, and we are only now aware of all of them because of > technology - or are there more than ever? Is the pulse accelerating? In > my view, our ability to recognize global happenings through technology > expands our consciousness. But consciousness is. It doesn't evolve or > change. We only feel that it does because we apply mental constructs to > what we recognize in order to analyze, understand and communicate. Here is > the ought from is. Here, I think, the deconstruction begins. > > On Tuesday, October 14, 2014 10:24:12 AM UTC-4, archytas wrote: >> >> I like the idea in much the same way Molly, perhaps especially that of >> the dross falling away (perhaps from my short time in foundry work!). >> Current physics leaves us with 96% 'dark' - something (almost) beyond our >> senses and geometry, but still works such miracles as television, with >> relativity telling us such mundane stuff as how a lead acid battery >> produces far more energy than we'd expect from standard chemistry. This >> working in action with incomplete and possibly wrong theory in our best >> areas is much neglected. We know very little of social organisation >> (despite reams of literature) and the role of 'constructors' across science >> and society. What we do know is generally swamped by ignorance and the >> need to earn a crust in existing social order. I have to say the >> literature is not a 'how to manual'. >> >> Grace asks ' are we prepared to develop a whole new form of solidarity >> economics emphasizing sustainability, mutuality, and local self-reliance?' >> Scientists have written on this for more than a century and it comes to a >> moral head in climate change, pollution and the cosmology of our plight >> (needs to leave the planet over time, be prepared for collisions). The >> facts have me convinced one can derive an ought from an is. Naomi Klein's >> 'This Changes Everything' has a lot of the facts. The rebellious turn for >> me would be religion free of what Tom Paine complained of (superstition), >> most notably inflicted on us now through pseudo-science like economics >> (highly religious in many senses including nine versions, all wrong) >> riddled with superstition and void of spiritual thought experiment and >> experience (data in a sense of what it could be to be human or post-human). >> >> On Tuesday, 14 October 2014 14:20:06 UTC+1, Molly wrote: >>> >>> You really cover the gamut here, Neil, going round and round the nut. >>> Rebellion has been on my mind too lately, as one of the great Detroiters, >>> Grace Lee Boggs, lays in hospice. She spent her adult life spanning 8 >>> decades organizing social activism locally in Detroit and nationally for >>> many movements, civil rights and women's rights among them. I was excited >>> to receive an award last month because she was on the agenda to receive a >>> lifetime achievement award also but she sent a representative and her >>> announcement came shortly afterward. Her story is quite interesting the >>> deeper one digs into it. >>> >>> Toward the end of her life she leaned less toward civil disobedience and >>> more toward spiritual coherence of groups, actively and quietly leading >>> local groups to greater organization and standards of living. For me, her >>> movement to peaceful rebellion was key as I have always moved thusly when >>> called to do so. Working "with" not against in a rebellion means organizing >>> through the deconstruction, seeing past the chaos and predatory >>> participants that inevitably enter into the fray. Moving in spirit during >>> rebellion gets past the right and wrong and into an vision of peak >>> organization for the group. The movement is movement toward the vision for >>> everyone. A great deal of rubbish falls away in the process. >>> >>> From my view, religion supports individuals and groups by lending a >>> structure to the seeking, until seeking is no longer necessary. >>> >>> On Tuesday, October 14, 2014 7:30:31 AM UTC-4, archytas wrote: >>>> >>>> The 'Putinography' was subject to ridicule on our satirical show 'Have >>>> I Got News For You'. I have never been able to feel, say, Allan or >>>> Molly's >>>> religion or god, though I'm not really atheist, even if that's the answer >>>> I'd give on a survey. I don't get art with, say, Facil's eye either, and >>>> in science and maths know I don't visualise well but do sense patterns and >>>> have an almost religious demand for evidence - to the extent I'd say there >>>> is almost none in our courtrooms or what passes for public scrutiny. >>>> >>>> Rebellion interests me firstly in the sense of its existence before the >>>> human mind. Even ants 'rebel' against their captors, killing their young, >>>> sometimes fighting against superior weapons technology (most slavers have >>>> mandibles like swords). The rebellion is not about freedom for the >>>> individual ants but their species. The rebels will die, but their species >>>> may prosper from the reduced slaving population. We tend to metaphors >>>> like >>>> 'co-evolution' and 'arms' races' in biology, but these are inadequate, >>>> transferring the all-too-human. >>>> >>>> Religion, stripped of its institutionalism and rationalisation, seems a >>>> rebellion to peace and in and against nature at the same time. It is >>>> against self whilst also self-development. The language is almost >>>> impossible as we have barely learned the ambiguity and parochiality of >>>> language and are confused on originality. Mimicry is everywhere in nature >>>> - ants pretending to be spiders, spiders and beetles pretending to be ants >>>> - politicians pretending to be other than puppets of shadow control. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Monday, 13 October 2014 19:51:39 UTC+1, facilitator wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I believe some of this. However I deviate in that I believe churches >>>>> are for the individual to hide among or be counted in the group. This is >>>>> even more true of the priest, Rabbi, Imam, etc. Saying they are for the >>>>> masses requires a much wider brush that I can't paint liberally with. >>>>> >>>>> On Monday, October 13, 2014 12:27:43 PM UTC-4, Allan Heretic wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Churches are for basically for the masses .. There is a basic need to >>>>>> believe or explain the unknown. Transition into spirituality does not >>>>>> take >>>>>> much. >>>>>> >>>>>> Common religious views are a starting point from which to build ones >>>>>> spiritual view and experience. Within Catholicism there are basically 3 >>>>>> levels of spirituality. The first level , believe God is real go to >>>>>> church >>>>>> follow the rules. The second level is where people become aware of the >>>>>> presence of God, with him becoming a major part of their lives, with >>>>>> experiences like Molly spoke of not being uncommon. Theses experiences >>>>>> being a driving force. The Third level the roll of the church changes >>>>>> from >>>>>> spiritual guide to one of an observer and scribe. At this level these >>>>>> people are no longer the ' churches ' problem but that of God. The >>>>>> official >>>>>> church very much likes these people as part of the church, providing >>>>>> assistance when possible. >>>>>> Many centuries of observation allows the church to easily recognize >>>>>> the different levels. It really is an interesting source of study. >>>>>> The English are among the greatest slavers in the world.. Followed >>>>>> closely by islam. >>>>>> >>>>>> Allan >>>>>> Living Soul >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: archytas <[email protected]> >>>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>>> Sent: Mon, 13 Oct 2014 4:18 PM >>>>>> Subject: Mind's Eye Re: Religion as rebellion >>>>>> >>>>>> I've done much of the magic in the secret society bit (in what was >>>>>> once Zaire). My friend (a tribal chief) and I were able to repeat the >>>>>> magic in my university office. Sadly, I get rather the reverse >>>>>> experience >>>>>> of Molly in our churches. Jean-Claude was a thorough-going Marxist, >>>>>> though >>>>>> detested the Lenin-Mao lines. I tend to anarchist-mutualism myself and >>>>>> am >>>>>> never sure about Molly's higher plane - my sense is it emerges from the >>>>>> material conditions of possibility. Sleeping near ants is not >>>>>> recommended. >>>>>> >>>>>> I was thinking of the potentials of religion to free us from >>>>>> biological structuration, perhaps in the sense of a poison-cure. It has >>>>>> both higher plane experience and chronic rationalisation - the latter, >>>>>> say, >>>>>> in jihad, crusades and the ant-like 'let's kill the Yazidi and steal >>>>>> their >>>>>> women' (or Numbers 31). Many of our terms have this pharmikon status, >>>>>> though we allow them to dominate in 'good' form - education, government, >>>>>> freedom ... >>>>>> >>>>>> John Brown is often presented as a deluded religionist, but at least >>>>>> wasn't talking western philosophy at the top table of a slave economy. >>>>>> Religion these days seems silent on material matters. >>>>>> >>>>>> On Monday, 13 October 2014 14:16:26 UTC+1, Molly wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I suppose that it does provide a place to hide in community from the >>>>>>> mundane and economic realities of the lower and middle classes if one >>>>>>> is >>>>>>> necessary. I've always found a church community to provide its own >>>>>>> cultural limitations based on what all human groups offer, and not much >>>>>>> insight into faith or support in crisis of faith. At the head of each >>>>>>> church is a human being, struggling as we all do to make sense of it >>>>>>> all. >>>>>>> The tone of this culture depends invariable on the tone of the leader >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> they deviate more or less from the greater church dictates. Mass >>>>>>> itself is >>>>>>> little more than a ritual although once understood as a process to >>>>>>> higher >>>>>>> consciousness, can take you there, I've experienced it, and not just in >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> Catholic mass. Participating tribal ritual drumming can lead to >>>>>>> ecstasies. >>>>>>> Much if not all of this is lost on most congregations, in my experience. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Monday, October 13, 2014 7:03:02 AM UTC-4, archytas wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Many of our terms for freedom have religious origin in the rough >>>>>>>> phrase 'freedom from debt' - more and much wider than than Xtian >>>>>>>> kicking >>>>>>>> over the tables of the money-lenders. There have been many debt >>>>>>>> jubilees >>>>>>>> in history, often on the death of a 'king'. Debt slavery is and has >>>>>>>> been >>>>>>>> much wider in human communities than most seem to know. We are not >>>>>>>> widely >>>>>>>> informed on biology and anthropology in this regard. Religion can >>>>>>>> raise >>>>>>>> the best and worst in us. Much of it raises the notion of adherents >>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>> some kind of chosen people, sometimes restricted to the in-group blood >>>>>>>> line. The Yazidi are such an example. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Chimps seem to have a form of 'religion' connected with the seasons >>>>>>>> - as many of our belief systems. I saw footage of some southeast >>>>>>>> Asian >>>>>>>> spiders this morning - they lay eggs in a central tower surrounded by >>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>> henge - immediately bringing Stonehenge to my mind, though they don't >>>>>>>> hack >>>>>>>> stones to shape. Religion raises Facil's 'we might both (all) be >>>>>>>> wrong' >>>>>>>> phrase to my mind, something often missing in our argument despite >>>>>>>> knowledge that we can make many equally powerful arguments about the >>>>>>>> same >>>>>>>> stuff (Sextus Empiricus). To judge between arguments we need >>>>>>>> something >>>>>>>> mystical (religious). I say this as a scientist knowing magic wands >>>>>>>> don't >>>>>>>> work. Religion could be rebellion, a postmodern moment, >>>>>>>> oversimplifying to >>>>>>>> the extreme, of incredulity towards metanarratives like government, >>>>>>>> law and >>>>>>>> economics - a dreamtime against material and spiritual debt-rules. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Black holes have recently become 'grey', but dreamtime might >>>>>>>> challenge the geometry we use. Global warming and much else on >>>>>>>> pollution >>>>>>>> challenges us to think 'This Changes Everything' (Naomi Klein) - the >>>>>>>> economics of 'we can never afford to do the right things' in my view. >>>>>>>> So >>>>>>>> what does religion offer on the postmodern moment of rebellion? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>> >>>>>> --- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>> >>>>>
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