As trolls Allan, we could live under this damp bridge together forever, 
shoring it up against google unsupport in the last days.  Then, in a final 
Zimmer-movement, we will outflank the slave-ant queen.

The internet is pretty dire.  We are like people who want there to be a 
theatre in town, but never go, preferring to moan about the paucity of 
television.

On Wednesday, February 11, 2015 at 7:17:00 PM UTC, Allan Heretic wrote:
>
> It may not be fancy new format,  but I personally  like it. 
>
> تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
> Évitez; assassiner, le viol et l'esclavage des autres
> Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: archytas <[email protected]>
> To: [email protected]
> Sent: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 8:13 PM
> Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: Delusions
>
> Orn also took on this crown from which you stole the jewels to feed your 
> raising-Allan-to-dust laser-tarot.  I was asked so suggested you, already 
> doing enough paid moderation for my needs.  The crown was known to be 
> empty.  We could all have moved on, though the negativity of non-enthusiasm 
> was entirely in positive decline.  We could try the new Gabbywit format 
> with its underlying moaning minnie architecture and stuck-in-the-mud 
> operating system.  I do know of formats we could have tried, but the 
> essence, beyond smiling pussies in gif and Chris holding up a beer. is 
> content and supervision of the nasties.  Let me read you a bedtime story, 
> with at least 4 policewomen standing by, from the Book of Management. 
>  That's what you get once people void themselves of responsibility for 
> content and can only turn up with gossip, small talk and wassup 
> sexism.ageism and control fetish.  One almost misses the American 
> exceptionalists and their use of the world socialist as a pejorative like 
> an old spinster muttering 'sex'.  
>
> On Wednesday, February 11, 2015 at 5:37:42 PM UTC, Gabby wrote:
>>
>>  Over a thousand members, 5 actually post?
>>
>>  
>> This question coming from you? YOU! Oh come on, Chrissy baby! This is an 
>> outdated format here that doesn't generate much traffic anymore. You know 
>> that, that`s your job to know that, that`s why you quit the mod job here! 
>> No one is blaming you for that but don´t play the innocent here! You 
>> introduced no transparent polling as to who should become your successor, 
>> but lay down your crown to the one who threw his hat in the ring, a method 
>> acceptable for the queen also. Nice try, dear.
>>
>> 2015-02-11 17:34 GMT+01:00 Chris Jenkins <[email protected]>:
>>
>>> Yep, he passed the bar some time ago, which is a big part of why he no 
>>> longer had time for these conversations. 
>>>
>>> He's not alone in that, apparently. Over a thousand members, 5 actually 
>>> post?
>>>
>>> On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 11:32 AM, archytas <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Such charm as ever Gabby.  The term paedophile is not well taken here 
>>>> and may really insult Allan and make him sad.  Molly was gone, in the 
>>>> sense 
>>>> of 'gone fishin'.  Craig was becoming a lawyer.  Hope he made it. He was a 
>>>> Mormon too.
>>>>
>>>> It would have been nice to hear updates on Bacon.  There were eleven 
>>>> Idols.  I expect your superior model incorporates them, or perhaps spits 
>>>> spleen.  We can only be sure of never seeing it.
>>>>
>>>> We model defeasibly now and use a lot of geometry because a lot of us 
>>>> think in shape.  The idea is to make natural language usable by the 
>>>> machine.  It has even more difficulty making sense of just what humans say 
>>>> than a pair of paranoid-schizoid positionists.  We do consider 'shapes' 
>>>> like the molygon as underliers in our logic and they are instructive.  A 
>>>> gabbygon is on the horizon - some no doubt thinking this is the best 
>>>> place.  The general theory is called 'bag of words' - we look for shapes 
>>>> in 
>>>> text to give context meaning and identify root metaphors.  You probably 
>>>> know how the SNERT stands out like a sore thumb?  Maybe accusing old men 
>>>> and their dogs kind of thing?  We are trying to find much more routine 
>>>> issues in word use to get at some of Tony has described as dishonesty  
>>>> from 
>>>> 'bag of words' samples taken from the 'marketplace' and other Idol 
>>>> conversations.  What the machine establishes from metadata - considering 
>>>> we 
>>>> often haven't - is fascinating because we are not sure what it i doing at 
>>>> all.  We have it working on the self-justification of psychopaths at the 
>>>> moment.
>>>>
>>>> Gravity obviously collapses on seeing a photograph of me.  Thanks for 
>>>> the memory.  
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wednesday, February 11, 2015 at 3:13:50 PM UTC, Gabby wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> This here is my real lesson. You have been bringing up and pushing 
>>>>> this idol model so many times that I have forgotten what the one was that 
>>>>> I 
>>>>> found better. All that I remember is that it was either located in the 
>>>>> alchemy or in the metaphysical poetry context. It was a perfect four is 
>>>>> all 
>>>>> that is left. It has been overwritten by your four idols.
>>>>>
>>>>> 2015-02-11 1:35 GMT+01:00 archytas <[email protected]>:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Francis Bacon classified the intellectual fallacies of his time under 
>>>>>> four headings which he called idols. He distinguished them as idols of 
>>>>>> the 
>>>>>> Tribe, idols of the e, idols of the Marketplace and idols of the 
>>>>>> Theatre. 
>>>>>> An idol is an image, in this case held in the mind, which receives 
>>>>>> veneration but is without substance in itself. Bacon did not regard 
>>>>>> idols 
>>>>>> as symbols, but rather as fixations.  They expand a bit like this:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1. Tribe
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The example of desiring to see more order in the universe than is 
>>>>>> actually there is one of his examples of an idol of the tribe. He thinks 
>>>>>> that we all suffer from that one.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2. Cave
>>>>>>
>>>>>> An example of an idol of the cave (one of Bacon's examples) is that 
>>>>>> some minds are more drawn to new things and new ideas than they are to 
>>>>>> what 
>>>>>> has been around for a long time, while other minds are more drawn to 
>>>>>> "tradition" and "old school" ideas and ways than they are to newness. 
>>>>>> Bacon 
>>>>>> thinks we should become aware what our own tendency is so that we can 
>>>>>> make 
>>>>>> corrections for it. He hopes that by becoming aware of our own mind's 
>>>>>> tendencies toward loving novelty or tradition that we might be able to 
>>>>>> "correct" for them and then hopefully see things more clearly and truly.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 3. Marketplace
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We often use words very loosely in common discourse. Bacon sees 
>>>>>> nothing wrong with that when we are just speaking ordinary language with 
>>>>>> friends and family. But, when it comes to trying to describe the world 
>>>>>> accurately and precisely, we should be aware of our tendency to use 
>>>>>> words 
>>>>>> loosely and should try to correct for it. When we are trying to speak 
>>>>>> precisely we should probably not say things like "The mountain is out 
>>>>>> today" (anyone outside of the Puget Sound area wouldn't have a clue what 
>>>>>> this means); or "The sun went under a cloud" (the sun did not go 
>>>>>> anywhere, 
>>>>>> let along underneath something); or "The sun came up this morning" (the 
>>>>>> earth actually just rotated). None of those sentences is precisely true, 
>>>>>> and if we use language imprecisely like this it can sometimes 
>>>>>> accidentally 
>>>>>> lead to huge misapprehensions about the world. Bacon thinks this misuse 
>>>>>> of 
>>>>>> words and language causes far more problems than we realize.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 4. Theatre
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you can think of someone you know who has recently bought into a 
>>>>>> whole new religion or philosophy or psychology, you can probably see how 
>>>>>> they have suddenly come to interpret everything in the universe 
>>>>>> according 
>>>>>> to their new world view. That world view has become the new lens through 
>>>>>> which they perceive and interpret everything in their world. What Bacon 
>>>>>> says, though, is that we all do this. We all interpret the world through 
>>>>>> the lens of our own little world view. It's just easier to see other 
>>>>>> people 
>>>>>> doing it than it is to see ourselves doing it. Bacon thinks we should 
>>>>>> become aware of how these world views shape and distort our own 
>>>>>> perceptions 
>>>>>> of the world so that we might be able to correct for it a bit.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This is old work.  My questions are about how we recognise the 
>>>>>> 'second head' as a delusion yet move hardly at all on obvious political 
>>>>>> delusions like economics, votes counting, social care, public ignorance 
>>>>>> and 
>>>>>> the making invisible of many social issues.  For me, deep questions on 
>>>>>> self 
>>>>>> are involved.  The internet self is unlikely to be, as Tony says, the 
>>>>>> same 
>>>>>> as the 'real'one - but then we have know for much longer than the 
>>>>>> internet 
>>>>>> people don't say the same things in different contexts.  In fact the man 
>>>>>> or 
>>>>>> woman in the bar often looks totally different the morning after, let 
>>>>>> alone 
>>>>>> what the politician says in a speech compared with when she is with her 
>>>>>> backroom boys in the spin room.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> .
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tuesday, February 10, 2015 at 10:17:04 PM UTC, archytas wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> At least with my knowledge of delusions I can imagine certain people 
>>>>>>> growing a second head overnight and shooting the wrong spare.  
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Tuesday, February 10, 2015 at 10:11:09 PM UTC, archytas wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That seems to run to form Gabby.  
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, February 10, 2015 at 10:06:43 PM UTC, Gabby wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Facil picked up your question and gave his answer, I agreed and 
>>>>>>>>> then came Allan barking at Facil and I told Allan to watch his tongue 
>>>>>>>>> or 
>>>>>>>>> leave to his own thread. Only then did you enter the group timeline 
>>>>>>>>> to 
>>>>>>>>> start your big daddy has come home show. Now tell me what my 
>>>>>>>>> deceitful 
>>>>>>>>> intent was ... Or better, tell me tomorrow, I'm off for today.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Am Dienstag, 10. Februar 2015 schrieb archytas :
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The only people I meet like that tend to be online students 
>>>>>>>>>> Tony.  We use Skype video conferencing for a few sessions, so have 
>>>>>>>>>> actually 
>>>>>>>>>> seen each other.  I'm quieter than people imagine, though none have 
>>>>>>>>>> yet 
>>>>>>>>>> said 'uglier'.  I'm very prone to catch whatever bugs go around 
>>>>>>>>>> university 
>>>>>>>>>> environments too, so rather like electronic distance.  With 
>>>>>>>>>> colleagues, the 
>>>>>>>>>> situation is we know a lot more about each other than most in online 
>>>>>>>>>> encounters.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> My version has 'confusion' written through it.  I say something, 
>>>>>>>>>> Gabby takes it another way, or knows what I intended and chooses 
>>>>>>>>>> another 
>>>>>>>>>> slant for whatever reason.  Online, I assume she has a sense of 
>>>>>>>>>> humour and 
>>>>>>>>>> a good turn with words.  Deception is not part of this in the first 
>>>>>>>>>> place.  
>>>>>>>>>> Just guesses with less risk than so called reality.  I suppose the 
>>>>>>>>>> classic 
>>>>>>>>>> online deceiver is the groomer - where the intent is to set up and 
>>>>>>>>>> image 
>>>>>>>>>> and then meet the victim.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, February 10, 2015 at 7:54:18 PM UTC, facilitator 
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>  On Tuesday, February 10, 2015 at 2:11:33 PM UTC-5, archytas 
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The delusion that we are what we project is interesting Tony. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> "We claim to be what we project".  Your version allows for 
>>>>>>>>>>> reality mine allows for dishonesty. I think most people want to 
>>>>>>>>>>> project a 
>>>>>>>>>>> filtered image of themselves enough so that if we ever meet people 
>>>>>>>>>>> who 
>>>>>>>>>>> we've only conversed with online we become slightly astonished how 
>>>>>>>>>>> different they appear and act in "real life".  
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>  -- 
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