Molly, at least give the members some time to ease the stress which they feel in such a serious discussion, there is nothing so relieving as humor.
On Fri, Mar 6, 2015 at 7:17 PM, Molly <[email protected]> wrote: > Beautifully structured argument, Francis, I am so happy you are back with > us here. When we talk about violence against women and cultural attitudes > toward women, and begin to look toward violence prevention and, as Pol > suggests, we are talking about ways to begin to make a change.. The > thinking in the US for the last couple of decades has been that > "prevention" whether in terms of violence, substance abuse, teen pregnancy > or any of the other societal ills we look to improve, all have the same > systemic approach. The approach has been community organization, grass > roots, involving collaborative groups interested in giving children and > families the same messages about interpersonal and group relations and > effecting these cultural norms. It could only be brainwashing (heading Neil > off here) if everyone went along blindly, which is why the grass roots > approach is the only working model so far. We can organize large groups > only if they can see the benefit of how our invested interests effect them, > their families, their children. If we can prove that it can, it works, and > large parts of the community will join the effort for long enough that > attitudes can change. If groups don't see change in their lives, the > movement fails quickly. It takes support from the top and lots of effort > from the bottom to the top and back down. When it works, it is a beautiful > thing. Organization takes time and I think we all have a problem being > patient with ourselves. We also have a problem taking responsibility for > our own attitudes and how they effect the whole. The continual degradation > of the discussion to an argument about Allan's statement may be a > distraction from looking at our own responsibility and attitudes. It is the > most important place to start. And sometimes the hardest. > > > On Thursday, March 5, 2015 at 8:38:07 PM UTC-5, frantheman wrote: >> >> If I'm understanding you correctly, RP, one of your major arguments is >> that it's not fair to single out India on this issue because other >> countries are just as bad. >> >> This is not a good way to make an argument. It's basically just a version >> of the situation where a kid is called out for misbehaviour and he/she >> answers by pointing at another kid and saying, "he did it too, she did >> something even worse!" It doesn't address the real question. >> >> The real question here is a cultural attitude towards women which seems >> to be fairly widespread in certain sections of Indian society and the >> influence this may have had on the Indian authorities re. banning the >> documentary. In an open society - which India is - it is legitimate to >> discuss this issue; in a globalised open society, it is perfectly valid for >> people outside India to also become involved in this discussion. I >> certainly would not claim that India is a "backward country"; it is the >> world's largest democracy, a wonderful example of how a post-colonial >> society can organise itself multi-ethnically, multi-lingually, >> multi-culturally, multi-religiously, despite huge problems of inequality, >> poverty, and many potential sources of serious conflict, in a democratic >> and open manner. Chaotically, often imperfectly ... but it works! And >> that's something the whole world can only look at in awe and admiration. >> >> But this does not mean that India is perfect, or beyond criticism. And >> the attitude to women *is *an Indian problem. I agree it's also a >> problem in other countries and societies - but that's a matter for another >> discussion. And as long as India remains an open society - something I >> expect it to do - this current discussion on attitudes to women, provoked >> by the horrific rape and the documentary, is only the beginning. This >> discussion will go on, and move in directions which may prove even more >> uncomfortable for those holding traditional conservative attitudes. Once >> the theme of equality and rights in gender issues comes into the arena of >> public discussion, other questions which are implicit in it will arrive on >> the agenda sooner or later. What about the issue of parents deciding who >> their children should marry, for example? India has a growing, >> well-educated, questioning, young population, networked with the whole >> world, half of them women. They will ask questions, compare, and ultimately >> demand. In an open society, you can't put the toothpaste back in the tube. >> >> Am Freitag, 6. März 2015 00:07:25 UTC+1 schrieb RP Singh: >>> >>> If you had read the post to which I had answered You would have known >>> what I meant. The issue was that India is a backward country and are >>> prejudiced against women, I am just pointing out that such a progressive >>> country like america does not treat its women as equal to men, they don't >>> give equal salary or benefits to women. So please stop harping about India >>> and talk about inequality in the world, discrimination in the world, >>> exploitation of women in the world. Make it a global issue and not an issue >>> about India. >>> >>> On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 10:03 PM, 'facilitator' via "Minds Eye" < >>> [email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> What the hell does the US having a woman president have to do with >>>> rape? We haven't had an oriental president either. Hell, we haven't even >>>> had a black president yet. >>>> >>>> On Thursday, March 5, 2015 at 10:03:56 AM UTC-5, RP Singh wrote: >>>>> >>>>> There has been rampant dowry harassment of many young brides by the >>>>> in-laws, but the greatest harassment has mostly been done by the >>>>> mother-in-law. Women are actually the women's greatest enemies. America >>>>> has >>>>> 50% women population and in their long history they are yet to have a >>>>> woman >>>>> president. Are women actually sleeping or maybe somewhere they think that >>>>> men would make better leaders. >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 7:56 PM, Molly <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> A very sad case indeed, Pol. There is much there to invoke outrage. >>>>>> And RP's crack about women being the worst enemy for women has the tone >>>>>> of >>>>>> these rapists flinging insults about the victim. But I cannot say I agree >>>>>> that the film looks to be someone preying on the victim to get their own >>>>>> 5 >>>>>> minutes of fame. Looks as if the film makers took a tough stand to try >>>>>> to >>>>>> bring attention to the problem. And the problem looks to be, at least in >>>>>> part, that blaming the victim is so accepted in all parts of culture that >>>>>> we don't even recognize it when we see it, or sometimes say it. I can >>>>>> feel >>>>>> deep compassion for the mother when she says that she can't be hurt worse >>>>>> by their words after her daughter died in her arms after their violent >>>>>> actions. How do we bring attention to the atrocity of cultural acceptance >>>>>> of not only this kind of violence but the gender inequity that >>>>>> perpetuates >>>>>> it? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Thursday, March 5, 2015 at 8:59:06 AM UTC-5, pol.science kid wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://indianexpress.com/article/cities/delhi/i-wish-judicia >>>>>>> ry-govt-did-more-than-just-ban-a-film/ >>>>>>> On Mar 5, 2015 4:44 PM, "RP Singh" <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> That documentary has been banned and I don't read banned stuff >>>>>>>> because it is mostly prejudiced and sensational. The maker is simply >>>>>>>> creating a storm to make money. When that incident happened everyone >>>>>>>> was >>>>>>>> shocked, and by raising that subject again by talking to a perpetrator >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> the crime what did the producer want? If he was really concerned he >>>>>>>> should >>>>>>>> have talked to people on the road and not a savage who had no concern >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> others but only blaming the victim. Everyone needs protection, I as >>>>>>>> well. >>>>>>>> It is society through the government that provides protection against >>>>>>>> criminals and scoundrels. There are other type of savages who loot all >>>>>>>> your >>>>>>>> money and put you on the road, there are savages in uniform who >>>>>>>> implicate >>>>>>>> you in criminal cases, everyone needs protection and you are not >>>>>>>> unique in >>>>>>>> that. You can make India a better place to live in, just why don't you >>>>>>>> try >>>>>>>> to do that? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 4:19 PM, polly skid <[email protected]> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Don't use animals and rapists synonymously. What is your point >>>>>>>>> when you say women in other places are vulnerable? Its quite >>>>>>>>> obvious.. We >>>>>>>>> all live in this world and are aware of what happens in other places >>>>>>>>> too.. >>>>>>>>> The point of reference is the documentary and Delhi. Maybe extending >>>>>>>>> it to >>>>>>>>> other parts of India. Nobody ever said only Indian men rape. I don't >>>>>>>>> know >>>>>>>>> who you are defending 'india' against... When you say 'you are not >>>>>>>>> unique >>>>>>>>> 'in demanding protection.. Are you talking to me(when did i demand >>>>>>>>> protection;when i said delhi is unsafe??) , or do you mean all >>>>>>>>> womankind >>>>>>>>> when you say 'you are not unique in demanding protection'? As far as >>>>>>>>> i >>>>>>>>> gather Udwin is saying through the documentary that most men in >>>>>>>>> india are >>>>>>>>> not raised to respect women as equals and that's a contributing >>>>>>>>> factor in >>>>>>>>> increased rapes, hardly about controlling some random 'savages' out >>>>>>>>> to get >>>>>>>>> women and children. Maybe you should actually watch the documentary. >>>>>>>>> Might >>>>>>>>> help bring some perspective. >>>>>>>>> On Mar 5, 2015 4:03 PM, "RP Singh" <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Such instances happen everywhere in the world. There are streets >>>>>>>>>> in New York where you cannot move about. Girls are, and yes even >>>>>>>>>> children >>>>>>>>>> are forcefully put into prostitution and are drugged and made to do >>>>>>>>>> things >>>>>>>>>> which go against civilization. Are they being done by Indians only? >>>>>>>>>> Everyone needs protection from the animals and savages among us, and >>>>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>>>> are not unique in that. Western countries might be better in some >>>>>>>>>> sense, >>>>>>>>>> but we are in others. If you are talking about Delhi, you are doing >>>>>>>>>> so as >>>>>>>>>> if it was crawling with monsters, but there are monsters everywhere. >>>>>>>>>> In >>>>>>>>>> developed countries they have better systems of control, and as we >>>>>>>>>> progress >>>>>>>>>> we will learn to control the animals here as well. >>>>>>>>>> I have just read Archytas and he has given a good explanation. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 3:14 PM, polly skid <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Leave Delhi.. Remember the UP village case where two teenage >>>>>>>>>>> sisters were raped and hanged from a tree? Already forgotten by most >>>>>>>>>>> people. >>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 5, 2015 3:12 PM, "polly skid" <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Why should i need protection if i wear western attire..?and by >>>>>>>>>>>> that logic wearing 'indian attire' doesnt call for >>>>>>>>>>>> 'protection'..if you >>>>>>>>>>>> wear it ? Comparing India with Taliban aint a very great idea. We >>>>>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>>>> moving forward(in time) because thats what people do/countries >>>>>>>>>>>> do.. Plus >>>>>>>>>>>> who is criticizing 'india' dude...?? I dont get the point of >>>>>>>>>>>> getting masses >>>>>>>>>>>> and democracy. It's a fact that if youre a woman in Delhi youre >>>>>>>>>>>> quite >>>>>>>>>>>> unsafe. One cant even call any cab or board any bus.. The problems >>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>> course go much further than anything that is written here. Arguing >>>>>>>>>>>> about >>>>>>>>>>>> the 'greatness' of india's heritage, democracy , culture doesnt do >>>>>>>>>>>> shit.... >>>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 5, 2015 2:35 PM, "RP Singh" <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> If you are wearing western attire and moving about the streets >>>>>>>>>>>>> of Delhi who protects you, it is the people of India. India is a >>>>>>>>>>>>> democracy >>>>>>>>>>>>> and the government can function only if they are chosen by the >>>>>>>>>>>>> people. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Whatever politicians might be they know that they are answerable >>>>>>>>>>>>> to the >>>>>>>>>>>>> people and are ruling with peoples' mandate. Day by day we are >>>>>>>>>>>>> moving >>>>>>>>>>>>> forward, are we doing so by subjugating the masses? Our former >>>>>>>>>>>>> Prime >>>>>>>>>>>>> Minister Indira Gandhi tried to play the despot and lost the next >>>>>>>>>>>>> election, >>>>>>>>>>>>> she learned the lesson and corrected herself. Polly Taliban does >>>>>>>>>>>>> not exist >>>>>>>>>>>>> here , some people are trying to do that in the name of culture >>>>>>>>>>>>> and are >>>>>>>>>>>>> unsuccessful. Do the majority in India want fundamentalism, >>>>>>>>>>>>> surely not! >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 1:12 PM, polly skid <[email protected] >>>>>>>>>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sorry.. I don't mean the word tolerant.. what are 'they' >>>>>>>>>>>>>> supposed to be 'tolerant' of anyways.. That females exist and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> move about by >>>>>>>>>>>>>> will?? ... >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 5, 2015 12:52 PM, "polly skid" <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hate to say this RP.. But majority of people are NOT >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tolerant... An hour into the streets of most areas of Delhi or >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> even most >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> parts of north india would make it clear... Maybe you stay in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> better >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> parts... >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 5, 2015 11:41 AM, "'facilitator' via "Minds Eye < >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That's encouraging RP. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thursday, March 5, 2015 at 12:30:56 AM UTC-5, RP Singh >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is not the majority view, but that of deranged, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> uneducated and fundamentalists. Such people are always doing >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> something evil >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in the name of culture, what do such people know of culture. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We have a rich >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> heritage of giving respect to women if we look in not so >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ancient India, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when muslim raiders came from the west and stole women a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> little purdah >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> system developed as a defence, and in the course of time >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> evils in society >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> also developed, but by the good works done by social >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reformers from amongst >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> us much of our evil treatment of our women was abolished. It >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is in the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nature of humans to rationalize their venomous intentions by >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> putting the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blame on the victim. The majority of our people are not like >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that, they are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tolerant and free and that is the reason that we are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> progressing greatly. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 12:58 AM, archytas < >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> China? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, March 4, 2015 at 7:13:51 PM UTC, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> facilitator wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Article: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Blaming women for rape is what hundreds of millions of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> men here are taught to believe. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And the code for women in this country is simple: Dress >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> modestly, don't go out at night, don't go to bars and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> clubs, don't go out >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> alone. If you break the code, you will be blamed for the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> consequences. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> When one of the four men sentenced to death for the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> high-profile gang rape of the woman in 2012 was quoted in a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> new documentary >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as saying "a girl is far more responsible for rape than a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> boy," he was >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> repeating something community and religious leaders in this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nation of 1.2 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> billion routinely say. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from it, send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/op >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tout. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from it, send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from >>>>>>>>>>>>>> it, send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>>>>>> Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. >>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from >>>>>>>>>>>>> it, send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>>>> Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from >>>>>>>>>>> it, send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>>> Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>>> Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>> Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>> >>>>>> --- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>> >>>> --- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> >>> >>> -- > > --- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > ""Minds Eye"" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. 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