It's not hard to look into someone's eyes when talking to them, Molly. I'm pretty sure that you are doing this out in the streets. Your not addressing what and who you dislike here and to super-pamper what and who you like is a strategic power tool influence the direction of the discussion and the happenings. I find what you are doing here cheap, as to extend the foul topic a little bit.
Am Freitag, 6. März 2015 schrieb Molly : > Beautifully structured argument, Francis, I am so happy you are back with > us here. When we talk about violence against women and cultural attitudes > toward women, and begin to look toward violence prevention and, as Pol > suggests, we are talking about ways to begin to make a change.. The > thinking in the US for the last couple of decades has been that > "prevention" whether in terms of violence, substance abuse, teen pregnancy > or any of the other societal ills we look to improve, all have the same > systemic approach. The approach has been community organization, grass > roots, involving collaborative groups interested in giving children and > families the same messages about interpersonal and group relations and > effecting these cultural norms. It could only be brainwashing (heading Neil > off here) if everyone went along blindly, which is why the grass roots > approach is the only working model so far. We can organize large groups > only if they can see the benefit of how our invested interests effect them, > their families, their children. If we can prove that it can, it works, and > large parts of the community will join the effort for long enough that > attitudes can change. If groups don't see change in their lives, the > movement fails quickly. It takes support from the top and lots of effort > from the bottom to the top and back down. When it works, it is a beautiful > thing. Organization takes time and I think we all have a problem being > patient with ourselves. We also have a problem taking responsibility for > our own attitudes and how they effect the whole. The continual degradation > of the discussion to an argument about Allan's statement may be a > distraction from looking at our own responsibility and attitudes. It is the > most important place to start. And sometimes the hardest. > > On Thursday, March 5, 2015 at 8:38:07 PM UTC-5, frantheman wrote: >> >> If I'm understanding you correctly, RP, one of your major arguments is >> that it's not fair to single out India on this issue because other >> countries are just as bad. >> >> This is not a good way to make an argument. It's basically just a version >> of the situation where a kid is called out for misbehaviour and he/she >> answers by pointing at another kid and saying, "he did it too, she did >> something even worse!" It doesn't address the real question. >> >> The real question here is a cultural attitude towards women which seems >> to be fairly widespread in certain sections of Indian society and the >> influence this may have had on the Indian authorities re. banning the >> documentary. In an open society - which India is - it is legitimate to >> discuss this issue; in a globalised open society, it is perfectly valid for >> people outside India to also become involved in this discussion. I >> certainly would not claim that India is a "backward country"; it is the >> world's largest democracy, a wonderful example of how a post-colonial >> society can organise itself multi-ethnically, multi-lingually, >> multi-culturally, multi-religiously, despite huge problems of inequality, >> poverty, and many potential sources of serious conflict, in a democratic >> and open manner. Chaotically, often imperfectly ... but it works! And >> that's something the whole world can only look at in awe and admiration. >> >> But this does not mean that India is perfect, or beyond criticism. And >> the attitude to women *is *an Indian problem. I agree it's also a >> problem in other countries and societies - but that's a matter for another >> discussion. And as long as India remains an open society - something I >> expect it to do - this current discussion on attitudes to women, provoked >> by the horrific rape and the documentary, is only the beginning. This >> discussion will go on, and move in directions which may prove even more >> uncomfortable for those holding traditional conservative attitudes. Once >> the theme of equality and rights in gender issues comes into the arena of >> public discussion, other questions which are implicit in it will arrive on >> the agenda sooner or later. What about the issue of parents deciding who >> their children should marry, for example? India has a growing, >> well-educated, questioning, young population, networked with the whole >> world, half of them women. They will ask questions, compare, and ultimately >> demand. In an open society, you can't put the toothpaste back in the tube. >> >> Am Freitag, 6. März 2015 00:07:25 UTC+1 schrieb RP Singh: >>> >>> If you had read the post to which I had answered You would have known >>> what I meant. The issue was that India is a backward country and are >>> prejudiced against women, I am just pointing out that such a progressive >>> country like america does not treat its women as equal to men, they don't >>> give equal salary or benefits to women. So please stop harping about India >>> and talk about inequality in the world, discrimination in the world, >>> exploitation of women in the world. Make it a global issue and not an issue >>> about India. >>> >>> On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 10:03 PM, 'facilitator' via "Minds Eye" < >>> [email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> What the hell does the US having a woman president have to do with >>>> rape? We haven't had an oriental president either. Hell, we haven't even >>>> had a black president yet. >>>> >>>> On Thursday, March 5, 2015 at 10:03:56 AM UTC-5, RP Singh wrote: >>>>> >>>>> There has been rampant dowry harassment of many young brides by the >>>>> in-laws, but the greatest harassment has mostly been done by the >>>>> mother-in-law. Women are actually the women's greatest enemies. America >>>>> has >>>>> 50% women population and in their long history they are yet to have a >>>>> woman >>>>> president. Are women actually sleeping or maybe somewhere they think that >>>>> men would make better leaders. >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 7:56 PM, Molly <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> A very sad case indeed, Pol. There is much there to invoke outrage. >>>>>> And RP's crack about women being the worst enemy for women has the tone >>>>>> of >>>>>> these rapists flinging insults about the victim. But I cannot say I agree >>>>>> that the film looks to be someone preying on the victim to get their own >>>>>> 5 >>>>>> minutes of fame. Looks as if the film makers took a tough stand to try >>>>>> to >>>>>> bring attention to the problem. And the problem looks to be, at least in >>>>>> part, that blaming the victim is so accepted in all parts of culture that >>>>>> we don't even recognize it when we see it, or sometimes say it. I can >>>>>> feel >>>>>> deep compassion for the mother when she says that she can't be hurt worse >>>>>> by their words after her daughter died in her arms after their violent >>>>>> actions. How do we bring attention to the atrocity of cultural acceptance >>>>>> of not only this kind of violence but the gender inequity that >>>>>> perpetuates >>>>>> it? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Thursday, March 5, 2015 at 8:59:06 AM UTC-5, pol.science kid wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://indianexpress.com/article/cities/delhi/i-wish-judicia >>>>>>> ry-govt-did-more-than-just-ban-a-film/ >>>>>>> On Mar 5, 2015 4:44 PM, "RP Singh" <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> That documentary has been banned and I don't read banned stuff >>>>>>>> because it is mostly prejudiced and sensational. The maker is simply >>>>>>>> creating a storm to make money. When that incident happened everyone >>>>>>>> was >>>>>>>> shocked, and by raising that subject again by talking to a perpetrator >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> the crime what did the producer want? If he was really concerned he >>>>>>>> should >>>>>>>> have talked to people on the road and not a savage who had no concern >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> others but only blaming the victim. Everyone needs protection, I as >>>>>>>> well. >>>>>>>> It is society through the government that provides protection against >>>>>>>> criminals and scoundrels. There are other type of savages who loot all >>>>>>>> your >>>>>>>> money and put you on the road, there are savages in uniform who >>>>>>>> implicate >>>>>>>> you in criminal cases, everyone needs protection and you are not >>>>>>>> unique in >>>>>>>> that. You can make India a better place to live in, just why don't you >>>>>>>> try >>>>>>>> to do that? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 4:19 PM, polly skid <[email protected]> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Don't use animals and rapists synonymously. What is your point >>>>>>>>> when you say women in other places are vulnerable? Its quite >>>>>>>>> obvious.. We >>>>>>>>> all live in this world and are aware of what happens in other places >>>>>>>>> too.. >>>>>>>>> The point of reference is the documentary and Delhi. Maybe extending >>>>>>>>> it to >>>>>>>>> other parts of India. Nobody ever said only Indian men rape. I don't >>>>>>>>> know >>>>>>>>> who you are defending 'india' against... When you say 'you are not >>>>>>>>> unique >>>>>>>>> 'in demanding protection.. Are you talking to me(when did i demand >>>>>>>>> protection;when i said delhi is unsafe??) , or do you mean all >>>>>>>>> womankind >>>>>>>>> when you say 'you are not unique in demanding protection'? As far as >>>>>>>>> i >>>>>>>>> gather Udwin is saying through the documentary that most men in >>>>>>>>> india are >>>>>>>>> not raised to respect women as equals and that's a contributing >>>>>>>>> factor in >>>>>>>>> increased rapes, hardly about controlling some random 'savages' out >>>>>>>>> to get >>>>>>>>> women and children. Maybe you should actually watch the documentary. >>>>>>>>> Might >>>>>>>>> help bring some perspective. >>>>>>>>> On Mar 5, 2015 4:03 PM, "RP Singh" <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Such instances happen everywhere in the world. There are streets >>>>>>>>>> in New York where you cannot move about. Girls are, and yes even >>>>>>>>>> children >>>>>>>>>> are forcefully put into prostitution and are drugged and made to do >>>>>>>>>> things >>>>>>>>>> which go against civilization. Are they being done by Indians only? >>>>>>>>>> Everyone needs protection from the animals and savages among us, and >>>>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>>>> are not unique in that. Western countries might be better in some >>>>>>>>>> sense, >>>>>>>>>> but we are in others. If you are talking about Delhi, you are doing >>>>>>>>>> so as >>>>>>>>>> if it was crawling with monsters, but there are monsters everywhere. >>>>>>>>>> In >>>>>>>>>> developed countries they have better systems of control, and as we >>>>>>>>>> progress >>>>>>>>>> we will learn to control the animals here as well. >>>>>>>>>> I have just read Archytas and he has given a good explanation. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 3:14 PM, polly skid <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Leave Delhi.. Remember the UP village case where two teenage >>>>>>>>>>> sisters were raped and hanged from a tree? Already forgotten by most >>>>>>>>>>> people. >>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 5, 2015 3:12 PM, "polly skid" <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Why should i need protection if i wear western attire..?and by >>>>>>>>>>>> that logic wearing 'indian attire' doesnt call for >>>>>>>>>>>> 'protection'..if you >>>>>>>>>>>> wear it ? Comparing India with Taliban aint a very great idea. We >>>>>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>>>> moving forward(in time) because thats what people do/countries >>>>>>>>>>>> do.. Plus >>>>>>>>>>>> who is criticizing 'india' dude...?? I dont get the point of >>>>>>>>>>>> getting masses >>>>>>>>>>>> and democracy. It's a fact that if youre a woman in Delhi youre >>>>>>>>>>>> quite >>>>>>>>>>>> unsafe. One cant even call any cab or board any bus.. The problems >>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>> course go much further than anything that is written here. Arguing >>>>>>>>>>>> about >>>>>>>>>>>> the 'greatness' of india's heritage, democracy , culture doesnt do >>>>>>>>>>>> shit.... >>>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 5, 2015 2:35 PM, "RP Singh" <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> If you are wearing western attire and moving about the streets >>>>>>>>>>>>> of Delhi who protects you, it is the people of India. India is a >>>>>>>>>>>>> democracy >>>>>>>>>>>>> and the government can function only if they are chosen by the >>>>>>>>>>>>> people. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Whatever politicians might be they know that they are answerable >>>>>>>>>>>>> to the >>>>>>>>>>>>> people and are ruling with peoples' mandate. Day by day we are >>>>>>>>>>>>> moving >>>>>>>>>>>>> forward, are we doing so by subjugating the masses? Our former >>>>>>>>>>>>> Prime >>>>>>>>>>>>> Minister Indira Gandhi tried to play the despot and lost the next >>>>>>>>>>>>> election, >>>>>>>>>>>>> she learned the lesson and corrected herself. Polly Taliban does >>>>>>>>>>>>> not exist >>>>>>>>>>>>> here , some people are trying to do that in the name of culture >>>>>>>>>>>>> and are >>>>>>>>>>>>> unsuccessful. Do the majority in India want fundamentalism, >>>>>>>>>>>>> surely not! >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 1:12 PM, polly skid <[email protected] >>>>>>>>>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sorry.. I don't mean the word tolerant.. what are 'they' >>>>>>>>>>>>>> supposed to be 'tolerant' of anyways.. That females exist and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> move about by >>>>>>>>>>>>>> will?? ... >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 5, 2015 12:52 PM, "polly skid" <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hate to say this RP.. But majority of people are NOT >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tolerant... An hour into the streets of most areas of Delhi or >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> even most >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> parts of north india would make it clear... Maybe you stay in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> better >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> parts... >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 5, 2015 11:41 AM, "'facilitator' via "Minds Eye < >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That's encouraging RP. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thursday, March 5, 2015 at 12:30:56 AM UTC-5, RP Singh >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is not the majority view, but that of deranged, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> uneducated and fundamentalists. Such people are always doing >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> something evil >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in the name of culture, what do such people know of culture. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We have a rich >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> heritage of giving respect to women if we look in not so >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ancient India, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when muslim raiders came from the west and stole women a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> little purdah >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> system developed as a defence, and in the course of time >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> evils in society >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> also developed, but by the good works done by social >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reformers from amongst >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> us much of our evil treatment of our women was abolished. It >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is in the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nature of humans to rationalize their venomous intentions by >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> putting the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blame on the victim. The majority of our people are not like >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that, they are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tolerant and free and that is the reason that we are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> progressing greatly. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 12:58 AM, archytas < >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> China? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, March 4, 2015 at 7:13:51 PM UTC, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> facilitator wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Article: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Blaming women for rape is what hundreds of millions of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> men here are taught to believe. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And the code for women in this country is simple: Dress >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> modestly, don't go out at night, don't go to bars and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> clubs, don't go out >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> alone. If you break the code, you will be blamed for the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> consequences. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> When one of the four men sentenced to death for the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> high-profile gang rape of the woman in 2012 was quoted in a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> new documentary >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as saying "a girl is far more responsible for rape than a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> boy," he was >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> repeating something community and religious leaders in this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nation of 1.2 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> billion routinely say. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from it, send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/op >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tout. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from it, send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from >>>>>>>>>>>>>> it, send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>>>>>> Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. >>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from >>>>>>>>>>>>> it, send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>>>> Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from >>>>>>>>>>> it, send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>>> Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>>> Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>> Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>> >>>>>> --- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>> >>>> --- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> >>> >>> -- > > --- > You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the > Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. > To unsubscribe from this topic, visit > https://groups.google.com/d/topic/minds-eye/-5LTfst-rD0/unsubscribe. > To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to > [email protected] > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','minds-eye%[email protected]');> > . > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. 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