It’s official, Ryan is old-fashioned, unless you can show otherwise. Here is the challenge: [1].
[1] http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/03/08/opinion/sunday/algorithm-human-quiz.html?_r=0 <http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/03/08/opinion/sunday/algorithm-human-quiz.html?_r=0> > On Mar 9, 2015, at 2:17 PM, Ryan Kaldari <[email protected]> wrote: > > Call me old-fashioned, but I would really hate to see the lead sentences of > Wikipedia articles auto-generated by a program. Our text is dry and > monotonous enough as it is :) > > On Mon, Mar 9, 2015 at 5:05 AM, Jane Darnell <[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > I agree with Magnus that it should be Wikidata to the rescue for problems > like these, not some new policy that throws current WP contributors into a > tizzy. I am not sure how precisely, but maybe if all parts of a lead sentence > were in Wikidata then one could then experiment with a new Wikidata property > for "Mobile lead" which could first be seeded with the label and barring that > the WP lead? > > On Mon, Mar 9, 2015 at 12:47 PM, Amir E. Aharoni > <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > I'll state a bunch of things that are obvious to me, but should probably be > written down in some way... > > IPA, other names, and names in other languages indeed make reading harder. > They are there because of a tradition. There's a tradition of printing > encyclopedia articles like this (that's also where the bold font in each > articles' first words comes from). Just open any printed encyclopedia. It's a > nice continuation of tradition, and Wikipedia takes it to extremes thanks to > the blessings of Unicode - old printed encyclopedias were lucky to have > Cyrillic characters in their typography, and some good ones had IPA, Arabic, > and Devanagari, but you won't find pervasive use of Georgian or Kannada in a > lot of printed encyclopedias. We have pretty much everything in Wikipdeia. > The information is valuable, but having it all in parentheses in the first > sentence begins to be non-practical. > > It will help to at least be aware that a proposal to change this will break > with traditions; traditions must be treated with respect. But in the 21st > century on the web it may make sense to transfer IPA and names in other > languages to the infobox. Other names in the same language will probably have > to stay in the opening sentence, because article naming is a > super-contentious issue. > > And yes, the Foundation has no authority to just change it, because it's a > matter for the Manual of Style, which is owned by the community (in all > languages). As a member of the editing community, I would support it, and I > even mentioned it on mailing lists in the past (too busy to search where), > but it needs to go through proper discussion. > > > -- > Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי > http://aharoni.wordpress.com <http://aharoni.wordpress.com/> > “We're living in pieces, > I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore > > 2015-03-07 2:49 GMT+02:00 Dan Garry <[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>>: > (moving to mobile-l) > > Thanks Vibha, this is really informative. > > It's very clear that our first sentences really suck for supporting quick > lookup, primarily because their information hierarchy is all wrong. That > said, it's important to remember that we now have Wikidata descriptions > displayed in the apps for this exact reason: to let people find out quickly > and easily what something is. > > So, although I agree that our first sentences are suboptimal, it's important > to put the problem in context and remember that users do have Wikidata > descriptions now to satisfy this use case. It's not like we're totally > failing them, we could just be doing a bit better. > > Rather than piling on hacks by trying to scrape the content in the first > sentence and reorganise it (which causes information loss, and is extremely > fragile from a technological perspective), the long term solution is, at > least to me, to invest in is getting our engaged readers to write clear, > coherent Wikidata descriptions. These can then be used across all platforms > to support that workflow. > > Of course, there may be room for some quick wins that we can put in place > while we figure out truly compelling UX for getting readers to submit > descriptions. We can explore those quick wins in our brainstorming session > on Monday. But we must remember that these will only be short-term, hacky > solutions to the problem, and that we need to address this problem at the > source in order to be really successful at it. > > Thanks! > > Dan > > On 6 March 2015 at 16:13, Jon Robson <[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > Any reason this is on mobile-tech and not mobile-l (I'd love to hear from > people like Amir on this subject)? It would be good to flag this problem to a > wider audience and part of our problem with most mobile issues is people just > are not aware of this sort of thing. Many probably haven't even heard of the > hemingway app... > > It would be interesting to see how a wikidata generated first sentence would > score with the same app. > > On Fri, Mar 6, 2015 at 3:54 PM, Vibha Bamba <[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > Hi Folks, > Kaity and I used the Hemingway app <http://www.hemingwayapp.com/> to analyze > the readability of our first sentence, using a few articles. They all scored > poorly, an ideal grade level of 10 is recommended for clear bold writing. > > This difficult problem arises from the first sentence containing one or more > of the following: > IPA Keys > Birth/ death dates > Other Names/ AKA's > Help/info links > Alternate spellings and scripts > Additional details > Details like dates are replicated in the infobox, if it exists in the article. > Other templates such as AKA's/IPA's are extremely useful but need to be > presented in a clear and structured manner. Some of this comes from the > Manual of style > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Lead_section#First_sentence>, > but it is abused in many cases. > > Its sad, because many readers come to Wikipedia to answer the 'What is this/ > who is this' question. Google Knowledge panel strips out all brackets and > presents important details as a list, under the description. > > We have started investigating solutions for this on mobile. I would encourage > you to try this out on mobile web or apps. > > Thanks > Vibha & Kaity > > --- > > Articles we used: > Bern <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bern> > Genghis Khan <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genghis_Khan> > Cephalopod <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cephalopod> > Mahatma Gandhi <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahatma_Gandhi> > Nietzsche <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Nietzsche> > Carthage <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carthage> > Phoenicia <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenicia> > Timur <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timur> > > > > ---- > Vibha Bamba > Senior Designer | WMF Design > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Dan Garry > Associate Product Manager, Mobile Apps > Wikimedia Foundation > > _______________________________________________ > Mobile-l mailing list > [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l > <https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l> > > > > _______________________________________________ > Mobile-l mailing list > [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l > <https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l> > > > > _______________________________________________ > Mobile-l mailing list > [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l > <https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l> > > > _______________________________________________ > Mobile-l mailing list > [email protected] > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l
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