hmm,
I don't think it is just "Pirsig too". I think the edge often appears fuzzy
because it is assumed. Assumed to be fuzzy; assumed to be.
I hope atleast one will read the proceeding over and over until the
realization of a concept, so profound lands upon you. And then in the midst
of such elightenment realize that you are trapped, like a toddler, you
"Know" something that you cannot begin to discuss with your tribe.
At that point you will start to appreiciate what Pirsig has begun to do.
"Time present and time past
Are both perhaps present in time future
And time future contained in time past.
If all time is eternally present
All time is unredeemable.
What might have been is an abstraction
Remaining a perpetual possibility
Only in a world of speculation.
What might have been and what has been
Point to one end, which is always present.
Footfalls echo in the memory
Down the passage which we did not take
Towards the door we never opened
Into the rose-garden. My words echo
Thus, in your mind.
But to what purpose
Disturbing the dust on a bowl of rose-leaves
I do not know.
Other echoes
Inhabit the garden. Shall we follow?
Quick, said the bird, find them, find them,
Round the corner. Through the first gate,
Into our first world, shall we follow
The deception of the thrush? Into our first world.
There they were, dignified, invisible,
Moving without pressure, over the dead leaves,
In the autumn heat, through the vibrant air,
And the bird called, in response to
The unheard music hidden in the shrubbery,
And the unseen eyebeam crossed, for the roses
Had the look of flowers that are looked at.
There they were as our guests, accepted and accepting.
So we moved, and they, in a formal pattern,
Along the empty alley, into the box circle,
To look down into the drained pool.
Dry the pool, dry concrete, brown edged,
And the pool was filled with water out of sunlight,
And the lotos rose, quietly, quietly,
The surface glittered out of heart of light,
And they were behind us, reflected in the pool.
Then a cloud passed, and the pool was empty.
Go, said the bird, for the leaves were full of children,
Hidden excitedly, containing laughter.
Go, go, go, said the bird: human kind
Cannot bear very much reality.
Time past and time future
What might have been and what has been
Point to one end, which is always present."
T.S. Eliot
For the Rest go to http://www.artofeurope.com/eliot/eli5.htm
-Jared
----- Original Message -----
From: "ian glendinning" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 9:45 AM
Subject: Re: [MD] (jmoq) the preMOQ, the promotion of the mythos,and the
shoulders Pirsig thankfully had to stand on
> Hi Jared,
>
> I wouldn't say "science can not" but I understand your point and agree
> it was Pirsig's too ... but it's really just the defintional one
> about what is or is not "science" at the fuzzy edge where physics
> meets metaphysics.
>
> Ian
>
> On 8/15/07, TE <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> ian,
>>
>> thanks for your reply.
>>
>> to your point of 'poor science'. What I am getting at is that Pirsig
>> discusses things(quality) that science can not define. But he does so in
>> such a detailed way that science can not refute. My point is that if
>> SOMEONE were to analyze Pirsig's MOQ using only 'science' they would
>> conclude that there IS a greater circumference of understanding that
>> science
>> lies within, and therefore science can not explain. Or as I put it,
>> sloppily maybe, 'understand'.
>>
>> Jared
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "ian glendinning" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 8:46 AM
>> Subject: Re: [MD] (jmoq) the preMOQ, the promotion of the mythos,and the
>> shoulders Pirsig thankfully had to stand on
>>
>>
>> > First impression TE ... excellent.
>> >
>> > Method rather than physics - let's focus on the processes rather than
>> > abolsute foundations. Agreed
>> >
>> > Scientific method without understanding is a poor science ... an
>> > indication that science is missing something. Agreed
>> >
>> > Reading Emerson - for a fact ? Couldn't say, but no evidence that I'm
>> > aware of. Given the evidence of how he was "inspired" to MoQ, I'd say
>> > No. If he read Emerson later, he's kept it quiet.
>> >
>> > Ian
>> >
>> > On 8/15/07, TE <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> >> Joe, Ron, Ham and anyone else that took part in the "Metaphysics,
>> >> substance, intellect" string,
>> >>
>> >> I would like to put forth a new, more refined version of the same
>> >> contemplation I previously interjected.
>> >>
>> >> My intent is to spark a discussion about philosophy and method.
>> >> [(tangent) imagine instead of "MetaPhysics of quality", "Method of
>> >> Quality"]
>> >>
>> >> (i think) Pirsig, did somthing amazing. He qualified the "mysical" as
>> >> a
>> >> higher (broader) order of thought than the scientific; many people
>> >> have
>> >> proclamed this before; but Pirsig, in my opinion, succeeds at making
>> >> an
>> >> argument within a logic structure that when contemplated using the
>> >> scientific method one could only agree with his conclusion, without
>> >> understanding it.
>> >>
>> >> I am fascinated by the fact that the proceeding was written or' one
>> >> hundred years ago.
>> >>
>> >> "Out of Plato come all things that are still written and debated among
>> >> men of thought. Great havoc makes he among our originalities. We have
>> >> reached the mountain from which all these drift boulders were
>> >> detached.
>> >> The Bible of the learned for twenty-two hundred years, every brisk
>> >> young
>> >> man who says in succession fine things to each reluctant generation,-
>> >> Boethius, Rabelais, Erasmus, Bruno, Locke, Rousseau, Alfieri,
>> >> Coleridge,-
>> >> is some reader of Plato, translating into the vernacular, wittily, his
>> >> good things. Even the men of grander proportion suffer some deduction
>> >> from the misfortune (shall I say?) of coming after this exhausting
>> >> generalizer."
>> >> From "Plato; or, the Philosopher" Lecture
>> >>
>> >> does any one know for a fact that pirsig read and was influenced and
>> >> inspired to fullfill emersons work?
>> >> Moq_Discuss mailing list
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