I think I may have come across a bit cocky. I should have mentioned that I went through the process described . And I want to retract my last sentance and say instead: "It was at that point that I started to appreiciate what I think Pirsig has begun to do".
j ----- Original Message ----- From: "TE" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 10:28 AM Subject: Re: [MD] (jmoq) the preMOQ, the promotion of the mythos,and the shoulders Pirsig thankfully had to stand on > hmm, > > I don't think it is just "Pirsig too". I think the edge often appears > fuzzy > because it is assumed. Assumed to be fuzzy; assumed to be. > > I hope atleast one will read the proceeding over and over until the > realization of a concept, so profound lands upon you. And then in the > midst > of such elightenment realize that you are trapped, like a toddler, you > "Know" something that you cannot begin to discuss with your tribe. > At that point you will start to appreiciate what Pirsig has begun to do. > > "Time present and time past > > Are both perhaps present in time future > > And time future contained in time past. > > If all time is eternally present > > All time is unredeemable. > > What might have been is an abstraction > > Remaining a perpetual possibility > > Only in a world of speculation. > > What might have been and what has been > > Point to one end, which is always present. > > Footfalls echo in the memory > > Down the passage which we did not take > > Towards the door we never opened > > Into the rose-garden. My words echo > > Thus, in your mind. > > But to what purpose > > Disturbing the dust on a bowl of rose-leaves > > I do not know. > > Other echoes > > Inhabit the garden. Shall we follow? > > Quick, said the bird, find them, find them, > > Round the corner. Through the first gate, > > Into our first world, shall we follow > > The deception of the thrush? Into our first world. > > There they were, dignified, invisible, > > Moving without pressure, over the dead leaves, > > In the autumn heat, through the vibrant air, > > And the bird called, in response to > > The unheard music hidden in the shrubbery, > > And the unseen eyebeam crossed, for the roses > > Had the look of flowers that are looked at. > > There they were as our guests, accepted and accepting. > > So we moved, and they, in a formal pattern, > > Along the empty alley, into the box circle, > > To look down into the drained pool. > > Dry the pool, dry concrete, brown edged, > > And the pool was filled with water out of sunlight, > > And the lotos rose, quietly, quietly, > > The surface glittered out of heart of light, > > And they were behind us, reflected in the pool. > > Then a cloud passed, and the pool was empty. > > Go, said the bird, for the leaves were full of children, > > Hidden excitedly, containing laughter. > > Go, go, go, said the bird: human kind > > Cannot bear very much reality. > > Time past and time future > > What might have been and what has been > > Point to one end, which is always present." > > > > T.S. Eliot > > > > For the Rest go to http://www.artofeurope.com/eliot/eli5.htm > > > > > > > > -Jared > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "ian glendinning" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 9:45 AM > Subject: Re: [MD] (jmoq) the preMOQ, the promotion of the mythos,and the > shoulders Pirsig thankfully had to stand on > > >> Hi Jared, >> >> I wouldn't say "science can not" but I understand your point and agree >> it was Pirsig's too ... but it's really just the defintional one >> about what is or is not "science" at the fuzzy edge where physics >> meets metaphysics. >> >> Ian >> >> On 8/15/07, TE <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>> ian, >>> >>> thanks for your reply. >>> >>> to your point of 'poor science'. What I am getting at is that Pirsig >>> discusses things(quality) that science can not define. But he does so in >>> such a detailed way that science can not refute. My point is that if >>> SOMEONE were to analyze Pirsig's MOQ using only 'science' they would >>> conclude that there IS a greater circumference of understanding that >>> science >>> lies within, and therefore science can not explain. Or as I put it, >>> sloppily maybe, 'understand'. >>> >>> Jared >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "ian glendinning" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>> Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 8:46 AM >>> Subject: Re: [MD] (jmoq) the preMOQ, the promotion of the mythos,and the >>> shoulders Pirsig thankfully had to stand on >>> >>> >>> > First impression TE ... excellent. >>> > >>> > Method rather than physics - let's focus on the processes rather than >>> > abolsute foundations. Agreed >>> > >>> > Scientific method without understanding is a poor science ... an >>> > indication that science is missing something. Agreed >>> > >>> > Reading Emerson - for a fact ? Couldn't say, but no evidence that I'm >>> > aware of. Given the evidence of how he was "inspired" to MoQ, I'd say >>> > No. If he read Emerson later, he's kept it quiet. >>> > >>> > Ian >>> > >>> > On 8/15/07, TE <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>> >> Joe, Ron, Ham and anyone else that took part in the "Metaphysics, >>> >> substance, intellect" string, >>> >> >>> >> I would like to put forth a new, more refined version of the same >>> >> contemplation I previously interjected. >>> >> >>> >> My intent is to spark a discussion about philosophy and method. >>> >> [(tangent) imagine instead of "MetaPhysics of quality", "Method of >>> >> Quality"] >>> >> >>> >> (i think) Pirsig, did somthing amazing. He qualified the "mysical" as >>> >> a >>> >> higher (broader) order of thought than the scientific; many people >>> >> have >>> >> proclamed this before; but Pirsig, in my opinion, succeeds at making >>> >> an >>> >> argument within a logic structure that when contemplated using the >>> >> scientific method one could only agree with his conclusion, without >>> >> understanding it. >>> >> >>> >> I am fascinated by the fact that the proceeding was written or' one >>> >> hundred years ago. >>> >> >>> >> "Out of Plato come all things that are still written and debated >>> >> among >>> >> men of thought. Great havoc makes he among our originalities. We have >>> >> reached the mountain from which all these drift boulders were >>> >> detached. >>> >> The Bible of the learned for twenty-two hundred years, every brisk >>> >> young >>> >> man who says in succession fine things to each reluctant generation,- >>> >> Boethius, Rabelais, Erasmus, Bruno, Locke, Rousseau, Alfieri, >>> >> Coleridge,- >>> >> is some reader of Plato, translating into the vernacular, wittily, >>> >> his >>> >> good things. Even the men of grander proportion suffer some deduction >>> >> from the misfortune (shall I say?) of coming after this exhausting >>> >> generalizer." >>> >> From "Plato; or, the Philosopher" Lecture >>> >> >>> >> does any one know for a fact that pirsig read and was influenced and >>> >> inspired to fullfill emersons work? >>> >> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>> >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>> >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>> >> Archives: >>> >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>> >> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ >>> >> >>> > Moq_Discuss mailing list >>> > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>> > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>> > Archives: >>> > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>> > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ >>> >>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>> Archives: >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ >>> >> Moq_Discuss mailing list >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> Archives: >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
