Platt this is where your twisted rhetoric really grates ... The quoted paragraph is about the then current perceived state of intellect as "science the appointed intellectual pattern" - not all possible intellects for ever.
I think we've all agreed GOF "science" is not the whole intellectual story. Scientific empiricism does indeed not "see" morals, but science / intellect is more than the basic empiricism of science --- look at the threads where we've been discussing exactly this. To summarise DMB - a flaw in one intellectual pattern is no reason to abandon intellect entirely (and this is not a new complaint against your stance). Ian On 8/15/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Quoting david buchanan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > > > Platt said: > > Pirsig, I hasten to add, pointed out that modern intellect, in its attempt > > to guide society, contains a fatal flaw, namely, an inability to acknowledge > > the existence of values. Thus, the "evolutionary leap" has fallen into an > > abyss. > > > > dmb says: > > I'd say your reasoning contains a fatal flaw, Platt. And it would bother me > > so much if you hadn't already been corrected on this point several dozen > > times. By your logic, flaws in social level values should compell us to > > embrace the laws of the jungle so that the world is run by rape and pillage. > > By your logic, the negative side of the internal combustion engine should > > compell us all to return to riding horses. By your logic, we should accept > > devolution and return to a monarchical form of government. (Franco, the > > Spainish Fascist dictator tried to restore the monarch on his way out in > > 1975. The King of England was a big fan of Hitler. Henry Ford was a pen-pal > > Hitler.) See, the thing about American reactionaries is that they look very, > > very American. Its a sort of hyper-muscular assertion of what would > > otherwise be normal social level values and so its hard to get people to be > > alarmed about it. Its like trying to get people to be afraid of hot dogs, > > apple pie and dear old mom. Its like trying to get people to see that having > > a bible-thumping cowboy in the whitehouse is a recipie for disaster. I mean, > > just look at the results. These guys are taking a huge dump on the > > constitution, on the democratic process, on our rights, our system of checks > > and balances, on artists and intellectuals. They've even drawn complaints > > from academic journals for their atttepts to interfere with what is allowed > > to be published. They've altered scientific reports for political and > > financial reasons. Not to mention all the facts they had to ignore in order > > to make a case for war with Iraq. Now we're fighting the wrong war, don't > > have the resources to fight the actual enemy and everyone on the planet > > thinks Americans are as stupid as is Bush. Its a huge disaster. > > > > And yet there are millions of Platts out there cheering them on. And in this > > case we are talking about a flaw that has quite literally been fatal to many > > thousands of people. > > > > But having your input on this point does serve a purpose. It allows us to > > see what standard American anti-intellectualism looks like. As a bad > > example, you're very good. > > > > dmb > > Hi DMB, > > Hope you feel better now that you got all that vicious bile out of your > system. > As for intellect being flawed in its dominance of the social level, your > argument is not with me, but with Pirsig: > > "But having said this, the Metaphysics of Quality goes on to say that > science, the > intellectual pattern that bas been appointed to take over society, has a > defect in > it. The defect is that subject-object science has no provision for morals. > Subject-object science is only concerned with facts. Morals have no objective > reality. You can look through a microscope or telescope or oscilloscope for > the rest > of your life and you will never find a single moral. There aren't any there. > They are > all in your head. They exist only in your imagination. > >From the perspective of a subject-object science, the world is a completely > purposeless, valueless place. There is no point in anything. Nothing is right > and > nothing is wrong. Everything just functions, like machinery. There is nothing > morally > wrong with being lazy, nothing morally wrong with lying, with theft, with > suicide, > with murder, with genocide. There is nothing morally wrong because there are > no > morals, just functions.. > Now that intellect was in command of society for the first time in history, > was this > the intellectual pattern it was going to run society with?" (Lila, 22) > > > ------------------------------------------------- > This mail sent through IMP: http://horde.org/imp/ > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
