On Wednesday17 October 11:31:46 AM Bo writes to Joe [snip] My position is that the MOQ (the DQ/SQ evolution) is the meta- level that contains the Q universe. This seemingly stops the evolution because the MOQ can't spawn any patterns that opposes its parent (like the static levels) because it's the very DQ/SQ system itself.
Now, somewhere Pirsig says that there may come another intellectual pattern that "improves" upon the MOQ and his insisting on the MOQ an intellectual pattern makes it look feasible, but that's an illusion. No intellectual pattern can improve on the MOQ without destroying it, and thereby "the intellectual level" as a MOQ entity disappears. So, when you say "IMO not the intellectual level" you are no longer inside the MOQ (if you have ever been there?) but in SOM and sees "intellect" as the mental realm which is capable of spawning ever new ideas, but as we are here to discuss the MOQ I delete the rest of your thoughts on this issue. Bo Hi Bo and all, IMO You do not explore fully Pirsig’s explanation of evolution. He discusses the dynamic breakthrough from inorganic to organic. Within the organic he mentions a dynamic breakthrough between one cell reproduction and reproduction by a cell wall being penetrated by another cell. He can not put any limit on a dq/sq development from the dynamic side. He puts no limit on the destruction of a level, some have come and some have gone. His statement of an intellectual pattern that "improves" upon the MOQ is consistent with undefined dq. He is not clear on the dynamic point at which the social level evolves to the intellectual level. IMO that point is the start of a new branch of evolution the evolution of consciousness. In consciousness two are recognized. The relationship between them is seen as law e.g. the law of gravity. The law of gravity belongs in the intellectual level not the social level of consciousness. Enlightenment is a further dynamic breakthrough into a higher social level, and a higher intellectual level well within the parameters of MOQ DQ/SQ evolution. Joe Joe On 16 Oct. you wrote: > I agree there is "no way of ESCAPING an explanation of experience"! > IMO EVOLUTION is the correct explanation for experience in the Western > world rather than the subject/object one. You mean biological evolution? And that may be correct because inside SOM nothing that can evolve except life (the physical universe is by the current BB cosmology evolving, but it's a billion year scale and matter itself is supposed to be stable) the mental evolution is by default irreal. There are of the course the idealists who claim that all evolution is "mental", but its merely the mirror image of the former. SOM looms behind it all. Pirsig makes a point of there being no escape from metaphysics and by this metaphysics he means something greater than the Aristotelian type which are all intellectual (SOM) offshoots. When our ancestors from the mythological past interpreted the stars as gods and the animism aboriginals see the world as living it's all "social metaphysics". > [Joe] > In asking one level to represent the whole system of DQ/SQ evolution > Pirsig seems to dismiss the importance of further levels. What starts > and stops EVOLUTION? IMO not the intellectual level! My position is that the MOQ (the DQ/SQ evolution) is the meta- level that contains the Q universe. This seemingly stops the evolution because the MOQ can't spawn any patterns that opposes its parent (like the static levels) because it's the very DQ/SQ system itself. Now, somewhere Pirsig says that there may come another intellectual pattern that "improves" upon the MOQ and his insisting on the MOQ an intellectual pattern makes it look feasible, but that's an illusion. No intellectual pattern can improve on the MOQ without destroying it, and thereby "the intellectual level" as a MOQ entity disappears. So, when you say "IMO not the intellectual level" you are no longer inside the MOQ (if you have ever been there?) but in SOM and sees "intellect" as the mental realm which is capable of spawning ever new ideas, but as we are here to discuss the MOQ I delete the rest of your thoughts on this issue. Bo Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
