Hi Steve,
How refreshing to have an adult conversation about the impact of MOQ
morality without the childish, smarmy personal attacks. For that, much
thanks.
> Platt:
> > The truth is politicians propose social programs using other
> > people's money
> > coerced from the people, not offered voluntarily, resulting in a
> > loss of
> > individual liberty. That's the moral issue.
>
> Steve:
> Our government governs with the consent of the people. I don't agree
> with the claim that there is coersion involved though I do think that your
> point that every law that the government makes is enforced at the point of
> a gun is an important one to keep in mind.
I agree consent by majority vote meets the MOQ morality test. Recall
Pirsig's praise of the dynamic aspect of Robert's Rules of Order whereby
the majority cannot prevent the minority from becoming the majority. (Lila,
17). The fundamental coercive power of government is indeed important to
acknowledge. I do not fear Big Oil; I do fear Big Government.
> co·erce
> verb (used with object), -erced, -erc·ing.
> 1. to compel by force, intimidation, or authority, esp. without
> regard for individual desire or volition: They coerced him into
> signing the document.
> 2. to bring about through the use of force or other forms of
> compulsion; exact: to coerce obedience.
> 3. to dominate or control, esp. by exploiting fear, anxiety, etc.:
> The state is based on successfully coercing the individual.
>
> Since we have voting rights, I don't think it is correct to say that
> the government has no "regard for individual desire or volition." It
> has to answer to the people on election day. I know I'm sounding
> somewhat naive, but I think that the government really does work that way
> at least to an extent.
Agree to the extent that majority rules. But by law in keeping with MOQ
morality, the majority in the U.S. cannot abrogate certain individual
rights based on intellectual values, such as free speech.
> I'm not sure what I'd recommend for someone who feels coerced by his
> government like you do. (I suppose there are pacifists who feel the
> same way about their money being used for the military as you do
> about your money being used for social programs.) Civil disobedience?
> Relocation?
I fully accept the marketplace of ideas and elections as the battleground,
not the advocation of force. I think this squares with MOQ morality.
[Steve]
> >> If the fruits of labor represents money, we are talking about a
> >> social pattern of value, aren't we? Give to Caesar what is Caesar's
> >> then.
[Platt]
> > Property is the fruit of labor. Money is merely a symbol of property,
> > useful in exchanges in a free market. The moral question is, "What is
> > Caesar's?"
[Steve]
> But property is inorganic. The comfort it provides is biological. The
> status is represents is social.
Point taken. But I think it's extremely difficult to determine at what
point property ceases to provide comfort and become a status symbol.
What is designated poverty in the U.S. is considered riches in many third
world countries.
[Steve]
> >> There is also the premise in your argument that individuals in a
> >> society have no duty to other individuals that I disagree with.
> >> According to the MOQ, there is no individual without society.
[Platt]
> > And there is no society without individuals.
{Steve]
> There is some sleight of hand in that reversal. You are mixing uses
> of the term "individual" in the MOQ. There is no individual defined
> as a forest of static pattern of value of all four types and the
> ability to respond to DQ without society since the fourth level
> evolves after the 3rd. When you say that there is also no society
> without individuals you are changing the meaning of individual to
> refer only to biological and inorganic patterns of value.
I see your point. I can't help but think of Pirsig's characterization of
Lila, however. She is obviously an individual, but intellectually she's
"nowhere." (Lila, 13) Also I'm reminded of the force of the Giant. "But the
superorganism, the Giant, who is a pattern of values superimposed on top of
biological human bodies, doesn't mind losing a few bodies to protect his
greater interests." (Lila, 17) I see the intellectual level as a bulwark
against the appetite for conformity and the coercive power of the social
level Giant.
[Platt]
> > As Pirsig explains, society is needed to defend individuals from being
> > devoured by biological forces. That is the primary purpose and moral
> > sanction for the law, the military and the police.
[Steve]
> Wouldn't a national health care program help defend individuals from
> being devoured by biological illness?
Yes, and Pirsig agrees that it is moral for society to provide the basic
necessities of life to its citizens. Except that in society's previous
attempt to do so, it has blocked the creative power of Dynamic Quality.
Recall the discussion of this in Chapter 17 of Lila.
[Platt]
> > What other specific duties to other individuals do you find in the
> > moral
> > structure set forth in the MOQ?
[Steve]
> Society needs to maintain itself and intellect needs to support
> society since it's existence depends on society. I think the MOQ then
> suggests that we have to educate people to be able to perpetuate and
> contribute to society since social roles require education. Also, societies
> evolved because they helped biological man survive. Stronger societies then
> do a better job than weaker societies at serving people's biological needs,
> so a strong MOQ case can be made that it is in society's interest to have
> structures that increase the health of it's members.
I agree, with the caveat about Dynamic Quality mentioned above. National
government programs, whether about education or health, have not
established and enviable record of success when compared to the private
sector. But, the private sector also has shortcomings in not serving the
needs of all citizens. Perhaps it is up to you and I others in this group
to devise a Dynamic system that will address these problems. Surely there
is as much brainpower here as in any other gathering.
Best regards,
Platt
>
> Regards,
> Steve
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