Steve quotes Pirsig: > "When they call it freedom, that's not right. 'Freedom' doesn't mean > anything. Freedom's just an escape from something negative. The real > reason it's so hallowed is that when people talk about it they mean > Dynamic Quality."
Ham (previously): > If Freedom doesn't mean anything, then "the social-intellectual > moral code which describes how societies have come to agree that > the intellectual level should be free from social control", as you > defined it for Platt, doesn't mean anything either. Steve: > In the above I was referring to freedom as the absence of social > control. I think that in Pirsig's quote, when he says that freedom > doesn't mean anything, he is saying that freedom usually refers to > the absence of something else. It is usually just a negation, but it is > also used as a positive goal. When it is used in this way it refers to DQ. It is man's freedom that allows him to set up the moral code of behavior you call "social control". Human morality is not a cosmic law built into the universe, nor is man predestined to be a moral creature. Morality is the product of individuals reasoning together to establish rules of conduct by which they can live in harmony with each other. Civilization would never have come about if man could not sense the value of peaceful coexistence or possess the intelligence to implement a social system that would ensure it. In a free society, the people determine how they want to be governed, including the rights they are to enjoy as free citizens. Steve (previously): > These "rights" have evolved and continue to evolve as societies > come to better understand how they can facilitate evolution > towards DQ. > > Rights are usually used to say how individuals are free from > government control. America's founders said that all men are endowed with the "unalienable" right to Life, Liberty (i.e., Freedom), and the pursuit of Happiness. They recognized these values as innate to man (i.e., endowed by their Creator) before drafting the constitutional laws that would insure them. Ham (previously): > By Freedom I mean the autonomy of man whereby an > individual can choose his/her values and act in accordance > with his/her sensibility. Steve: > This is absurd. People don't choose their values. Could you > will yourself to prefer chocolate if you actually prefer vanilla? > Such freedom of preference or freedom of belief doesn't exist. Preference for a food, color, or type of music reflects the value sensibility developed over an individual's lifetime. Such values tend to change as the individual becomes more discriminating in his tastes. How can you assert that freedom of preference or belief doesn't exist? If "social control" dictates your preferences, I'm sorry for you. Were you not free to adopt the MoQ as your belief system? Or was that, too, dictated by social control? Steve: > In the MOQ intellectual value is aesthetic and moral. > > Again, such freedom doesn't exist. You can't choose to believe > something that you aren't already convinced of. IN the MOQ > I think the choice you are talking about is aesthetic preference. How do you define "intellectual value" other than as something of value to you? Gaining knowledge is valuable as a tool for controlling your environment. Discussing philosophy has value as a means of widening your perspective of reality. Of course personal beliefs are based on what you are "convinced of". But you are free to follow your convictions. Value is an expression of your sensibility, whether it is aesthetic, moral, or intellectual. Sensibility is autonomous; it isn't imposed on you by cosmic force or the values of others. When we have values in common, we call them social or universal values. However, most of what we admire or desire in our proprietary experience is determined by our aesthetic sensibility. Regards, Ham Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
