SA et al: > > > Platt said to Steve: > > > As I read this I can't help but note that you have > > faith in intellectual > > > quality (reason) even though reason cannot show by > > reason that it is > > > reasonable. What am I missing? > > > > > > dmb says: > > > Empiricism, that's what you're missing here. The > > value and validity of > > > reason is not proven by reason. It is proven in > > experience. It works, as we > > > know from experience. > > > Platt: > > What "works," the pragmatism you constantly appeal > > to as the arbiter of all > > that's good and true, was blown out of the water by > > Pirsig: > > "But the Metaphysics of Quality states that > > practicality is a social > > pattern of good. It is immoral for truth to be > > subordinated to social > > values since that is a lower form of evolution > > devouring a higher one." > > (Lila, 29)
No problem with most of what you write below. But, rather than saying that experience has value, DMB says that experience "works." That is pragmatism as explained by William James himself: "Her (pragmatism's) only test of probable truth is what works best in the way of leading us, what fits every part of life best and combines with the collectivity of experience's demands, nothing being omitted. If theological ideas should do this, if the notion of God, in particular, should prove to do it, how could pragmatism possibly deny God's existence? She could see no meaning in treating as 'not true' a notion that was pragmatically so successful. What other kind of truth could there be, for her, than all this agreement with concrete reality? " (parens added) Source: What is Pragmatism (1904), from series of eight lectures dedicated to the memory of John Stuart Mill, A New Name for Some Old Ways of Thinking, in December 1904, from William James, Writings 1902-1920, The Library of America; Lecture II I submit that experience that "works" does not necessarily have value, as Pirsig points out in citing the pragmatism of the Nazis. I assume you agree. Regards, Platt > SA: Platt, dmb didn't mention "practicality". He > said "empiricism". I don't know the difference, but > after reading the paragraphs surrounding what you > quoted, Pirsig also finds a difference between > "practicality" and "empiricism". Your correct that > "practicality" is a social good. Yet, Pirsig mentions > further along in the next few paragraphs that > empiricism is true and dynamic quality, and empiricism > is what dmb was talking about. Pirsig explains what > empiricism means, so on and so forth in the paragraphs > following your quote. Empiricism is value - it is > pure experience, quoted as follows: > > "In his last unfinished work, Some Problems of > Philosophy, James had condensed this description to a > single sentence: 'There must always be a discrepancy > between concepts and reality, because the former are > static and discontinuous while the latter is dynamic > and flowing.' Here James had chosen exactly the same > words Phaedrus had used for the basic subdivision of > the Metaphysics of Quality. > What the Metaphysics of Quality adds to James' > pragmatism and his radical empiricism is the idea that > the primal reality from which subjects and objects > spring is value. By doing so it seems to unite > pragmatism and radical empiricism into a single > fabric. Value, the pragmatic test of truth, is also > the primary empirical experience. The Metaphysics of > Quality says pure experience is value." > > SA continues: According to the moq, pragmatic value > is the primary empirical experience, and we all know > that the "primary empirical experience" is dynamic > quality. Dq is "reality..." that "...is dynamic and > flowing." Pragmatic value can be conceptualized, but > it is the "test of truth", in other words, the test of > intellectual patterns as to whether intellectual > patterns are true or not, yes, ordinary everyday > experience is this powerful, in the hands of all, so > democratic, but I'll go on. > I don't think you were on the same page as to > what dmb was pointing out, close, but a few paragraphs > back, but same chapter - chapter 29. Also, to show > more of what dmb was pointing out, a few paragraphs > later states as follows: > > "The Metaphysics of Quality is a continuation of > the mainstream of twentieth-century American > philosophy. It is a form of pragmatism, of > instrumentalism, which says the test of the true is > the good. It adds that this good is not a social code > or some intellectualized Hegelian Absolute. It is > direct everyday experience. Through this > identification of pure value with pure experience, the > Metaphysics of Quality paves the way for an enlarged > way of looking at experience..." > > > good night, > SA > > Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
