Hello Bo
Before we start out, know that I am of honest mind, I think you may
really
Have something with your concepts, but it would be unconscionable to not
Point out what I think are some things to consider.
7 March:
Chris before:
> Bo has it. Once again we see how messy things get when there isn't a
> clear WORKING definition of the 4th level.
Ron:
> But there isn't a clear working definition this why we invent one. But
> sometimes you guys give me the impression that you forget this is so.
> Bo's quote hits it squarely:
LILA:
> > The CULTURE in which we live, hands us a set of intellectual
> > glasses to interpret experience with, and the concept of the
> > primacy of subjects and objects is built right into these
> > glasses.
Ron:
> The culture hands us s/o. s/o may not be a property of human
> intellectualism. But it is the property of our culture, our human
> Intellectualism.
Bo:
You (still) use the term "culture" in your peculiar way and say that
the S/O divide may be handed us by (our) culture, while (our)
"human intellectualism." is neutral and just accepts what's fed it.
Ron:
I Quote Pirsig, which I obtained from yourself. Those are his words
Aren't they?
LILA:
> > The CULTURE in which we live, hands us a set of intellectual
> > glasses to interpret experience with, and the concept of the
> > primacy of subjects and objects is built right into these
> > glasses.
Bo:
This is a bit like LILA (in places) where the 4th. level is presented
as an mind-like realm that became fed the SOM and if the MOQ
idea is fed it, it will press SOM down into oblivion.
Ron:
This is the view, but SOM is embedded it may be appended but
Never pressed to oblivion as long as the culture exists
Using the same languages.
Bo:
A while back I showed how Pirsig postulates a "cultural immune
system" (that supports your culture-as-the-s/o-carrier) but I further
showed that this really is the the 4th. level's immune system (I
may repeat if needed) Culture is just a term for any group of
people with a similar outlook, thus in the Western hemisphere the
culture will be intellectual-steeped (S/O) while other cultures may
be social-steeped.
Ron:
I have come to the conclusion that human language, individuals and
society
Create themselves, the language that a society creates is directly
Indicative of how they think and view the world. English has three
Cases, subject, object and predicate. I think Chinese has 26 cases.
This influences how concepts are formed how value is established thus
The basis for a logic and a reason defined within. If there is no case
For the concept of "self" which I think Asian languages are peculiarly
Absent of, how can the basis of a subject be formed intellectually?
Bo:
"But it is an absolute fact general to all evolution. All levels are
absolutes,."
It's rationality's very value to distinguishing between metaphors
and what's metaphorized. It's a characteristic of certain mental
disorder to take metaphors literally
Ron:
But if "culture hands us a set of intellectual
glasses to interpret experience with" (Pirsigs words)
"with s/o built in"
it's metaphor all the way down. What we experience as reality is
a combination of patterns of value and socially conditioned
perception and understanding. If you name SOM as intellectual
you are naming SOM as reality itself for human beings. Pirsig
says this is a no-no.
but this is where you and Pirsig part ways.
Your interpretation seeks a 5th level because it does not
Account for reality outside of the human perception of it.
Yet all the fingers point to it, which has you stumped.
Ron:
> Just as SOM uses zero and whole numbers for methods of planning
> And prediction SOL uses SOM as the 4th level in the same way.
Bo:
"SOL uses SOM as the 4th.level"...Well, then, what IS the real
4th. level?
Ron:
intellectual .You been sleeping too? Intellectual is defined by the
social level. Societies vary do they not? Symbol manipulation, nowhere
do those symbols have to be interpreted as objects to subjects.
Bo:
As said the plan is for the MOQ in a SOL interpretation which is
the only one that gives it its mighty explanatory power.
Ron:
I agree to an extent but it leaves out the biggest explanation of all,
To experience beyond the view of the culture. Cultivate individual
Awareness. Develop patterns of value separate from society, for society
May dictate those values without our direct knowledge, avoid prejudices
Be mindful of the ever present now. Develop the attitude of care within,
Remain open to change. No one view is ever the right view.
It was only after Pirsig left the social structure was he able to
See out side of it and give it a name, the state sent 1.4 jigawatts
Through his coconut over it.
You tell Pirsig he's wrong, you tell all of us we're wrong,
The only constant is your interpretation....but you would never
Consider that perhaps you are the one who may be mistaken about
Your interpretation.
" But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that
all
who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed
at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright brothers. But they also laughed
at Bozo the Clown."
- Carl Sagan
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