On 16 Apr 2008 at 11:48, Heather Perella wrote:
> > Bo: Yes, I have wrestled with this question and tried a lot "openings"
> > for instance this. If you are a true Christian (meaning not buying any
> > modern psycho-talk about it being a subjective faith) what is
> > "Christendom"? Or what is "Islam" to a devoted muslim? It's the >
> > reality you live in. Not any SOM-Aristotelian "theory about reality" but
> > in the Pirsigean "ordered universe" sense.
> SA: Religion is on the social level.
The "semitic" types are definitely social patterns, I don't know
about Buddhism? Where would you place it? But my point was
that religious people don't subscribe to the MOQ, to them their
religion doesn't belong anywhere (in the religion) but is reality
itself, and it's such a relationship the MOQ has to a moqist.
Before I have tried the same example in a lesser scale, about
Newton's Physics place within Newton's Physics, but I don't think
it got through.
You know the container analogue in LILA?
This problem of trying to describe value in terms of
substance has been the problem of a smaller container
trying to contain a larger one. Value is not a subspecies
of substance. Substance is a subspecies of value. When
you reverse the containment process and define
substance in terms of value the mystery disappears:
substance is a "stable pattern of inorganic values." The
problem then disappears. The world of objects and the
world of values is unified.
Paraphrasing:
This problem of trying to describe the MOQ in terms of its
intellectual level is the problem of a smaller container trying to
contain a larger one. The MOQ is not a subspecies of its
intellectual level, the intellectual level is a subspecies of the
MOQ. When you reverse the containment process and define
"intellect" in terms of the MOQ the mystery disappears: The 4th.
level is "static patterns of intellectual value".
Particularly " ...when you reverse the containment process and
define in terms of the MOQ" ... should have been heeded. What
has plagued the MOQ is Pirsig's early definition of "intellect" in
terms of SOM as "thinking" or "mind", then the equally somish
"manipulation of symbols". While it's plain that it is the S/O.
Ok, enough.
Bo
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