Ron: That was my meaning, I tend to want to leave the door open to thought Simply for the reason that intellect is relatively new to the socio-biological scene. This is what I meant by layers of influence it All can amount to an in-accurate perception.
[Krimel] I am saying that symbolic thought is involved in the relatively new scene and that's great. But the older stuff emotion, sensation and memory play and much larger role in how we think and act than does "intellect" in that sense. Ron: I agree, but my focus is on intellectualization. Abstract thinking. What we are currently engaged in. Ron; Just like the Mandelbrot set, One variable can alter the structure dramatically. A false bad feeling can manifest in intellectually poor choices and conceptions all stemming From an iron deficiency or some chemical abnormality. [Krimel] Just a technical point but the Mandelbrot set never changes. We see difference parts of it based on the number we seed into it but the set itself, though infinite is constant. Ron: In the fractal generator I have, you can play with the variables to create Different patterns, the Mandelbrot set, as you say is a particular algorithm, Julian sets are interesting, some formulas are more complex than others You can change the variables and change the pattern infinitely. Connect different sets and the way they feed into one another and you get Very complex patterns. But changing one variable, changes the entire pattern. Krimel: I think Arlo is working around to making even the autonomic response to iron deficiency semiotic but I remain deeply suspicious of this. Ron: Well, you can reduce any concept to component atoms and lose the meaning. That's why I like to keep it to what it refers to, intellection. I limit it T0 the English language, reduction therefore, like Pirsig did, comes down To taxonomic classification of experience. Nouns to be exact. Ron: How We parse up experience in understandable terms. Thoughts are Thoughts are thoughts, that much we can drop for the moment, It's when we do what we are doing NOW, intellectualizing, That it becomes a relevant observation. That's what I'm concerned With. The mind/matter paradox is a intellectual paradox, it Really does not exist. s/o aggregate - grammar. self/other -grammar. I suspect a few folks here to call this absurd For it dashes everything. The house of mirrors comes down And all we are left with is the immediate now. [Krimel] I get what you are saying but I see it differently. From the individual perspective only MY mind exists phenomenologically. All that exists for me is the result of neurological impulses. But to the extent that I experience you and share experiences in common with you, all that exists is matter, that is a set of constant relationships and patterns that you and I agree upon. The paradox is that experience is totally mind but what exists is totally matter. Now I personally believe that my mind and neurological states arise from that external world of patterns and relationships and that the seeming duality does not exist. I frankly admit there is faith involve. I think it is more of a skip of faith than a leap of faith. But this is drifting way off topic. Ron: No, this is directly on topic as a matter of fact, experience is what it is. Only when, like you do above, intellectualize and make the distinction between certain kinds of experiences does mind and matter emerge. All that really exists is experience. Nothing more. I experience therefore I am. I can empirically verify this at any moment. No hop skip or leap of faith at all, For there is no gap between concept and experience. Its all on experience directly , now. Look at what Pirsig is saying in this light and a lot of pieces begin to fall into place. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
