[Ham] I don't like to use this forum for political debates, especially as Platt is
so much better at it. But this issue has gone beyond politics and is influencing the MoQists' perspective of morality, cultural history, social justice, individualism, and even the metaphysics itself. [Krimel] Wow, that really takes my breath away. You think Platt is good at political debate? I mean seriously? Ok, well given what follows I suppose that makes sense in a kind of clinical way. [Ham] The egalitarian movement began in the U.S. in the aftermath of the Great Society (c. 1964), and its effects on governance, academia, social legislation, and journalism have radically changed America's values. Children today are taught that Democracy means "social equality" rather than individual freedom. Our nation has allowed itself to be intimidated by an alien culture on the premise that discrimination is a bad word. [Krimel] If you want to discuss this kind of thing it would help to begin by understanding the terms you use. The egalitarian movement began in France. It comes from a French root. It first reared its ugly head in the United States with these words, "We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal..." This is an egalitarian country founded on egalitarian principles. It is the warp and weft of who we are as Americans. We have not always lived up to these principles. There is the fundamental hypocrisy of the constitution declaring indentured peoples and Indians as three fifths person and its failure to acknowledge women as full partners in democracy. In fact it took more than a century and three amendments to the constitution to make our chief governing document live up to the egalitarian principles spelled out in the documents that severed our ties with Europe. But you statement belies its high falootin' tone. Social equality? Don't you mean equality under the law? Alien culture? Well, I guess it's obvious who "they" are. "...Discrimination is a bad word?" You must really miss those Black Only signs on restrooms and water fountains. [Ham] Last week the head of the Islamic Society of North America demanded that Sen. John McCain stop using the word "Islamic" to describe the terrorists, while the Canadian-born journalist Mark Steyn is awaiting trial before the Canadian and British Human Rights Commission for the crime of "hate speech" for writing a book warning against the dangers of Islam overwhelming Europe. In Britain, non-Muslims are being banned from public swimming pools during prayer time. It's interesting that radical Islam places little value on the individual who, in this country at least, was traditionally respected above the tribe or collective group. [Krimel] It is becoming clearer to me why you feel the need to make up your own language since you don't fully understand the words the rest of us use; like egalitarian. So I will ignore this screed on Islam other than to point out that you don't seem to know anything about it, other than it is "baaaaaad" [Ham] But America's educational system has mandated that schools teach third-world cultural values as equal to those of the Free World. This is all part of modern liberalism, of course, whose agenda is to redistribute wealth through entitlements and welfare programs that will transform entrepreneurial capitalism into collective socialism. [Krimel] This is just, well to put it plainly utter bullshit. Teaching children that there are 'other' cultures and that 'other' people think differently than we do is not at all the same thing as saying that they are better than us. We can for example teach children that there are cannibals in the world and that they engage in this practice for reasons that are sensible, even spiritual within the context of cannibal culture; without encouraging cannibalism. Never mind the fact that there is plenty of time in the elementary and secondary curriculum for the study of American History and government which are still required in most states I believe. "Redistribution of wealth through welfare and entitlements..." now there is a mouth full of buzz words. Could their meaning be any more transparent? [Ham] It's no coincidence that sociologists, authors, and film-makers see this as an opportunity to exploit 'political correctness' in terms of collectivism. They play down the individual and extoll the masses under the banner of "progressive reform". [Krimel] Recognizing the rights and humanity of all those "other" people really sticks in your craw doesn't it? I realize that you are old, even older than me and that's really old; but Ham part of growing up means growing. Not just growing in size but growing as a person. Things were different when I was a lad too I remember the Black Only signs and segregated schools but "When I was a child I spoke as a child, I understood as a child I thought as a child; but when I became a man I put away childish things." Some of those childish things I miss but some were hateful and poisonous and I repent of them. Just the other day I posted a link to a John Stewart riff on the virtues of elitism, what you express here is the dark side of that term. I thought your rants on the glory of the individual were rooted in something sincere. But this post makes it clear that what you really want is a return to the days of your youth when government protected you from those filthy others and made sure that women held their tongue and stayed in their place. [Ham] Philosophers like Pirsig have joined the trend by positing subjectivity as a myth and portraying man and his intellectual faculties as products of biological and social evolution. Ideas, values, principles and concepts are no longer credited to the individual but are defined as levels or patterns of some collective intelligence, force, or cosmic realm. And so on. [Krimel] Ham, philosophy is the love of wisdom. You have nothing to say about love or wisdom. [Ham] You may call my concern about the postmodern mindset "paranoia", but you can't deny the current worldview that I've described. [Krimel] Ok that was the egalitarian part. The point of this post was supposed to be for you to show how collectivism relates to postmodernism. This being your only reference to postmodernism it is obvious you have no idea what it is other than it sounds "baaaaaad". I don't deny the world view you have described at all. I understand it better than most here and I am revolted by it. Revolted intellectually. Revolted emotionally. Revolted viscerally. I grew up with it in the south and I watched it die what seemed a long slow death. But as you so clearly demonstrate it isn't dead it just keeps morphing into something else. Hiding under different terms or forming into something like your private prayer language, Hamish. I don't know what kind of stake we can eventually find to drive into its evil black heart. I don't know when we will be free of it, obviously not today. [Ham] I've witnessed the transformation of society for three-quarters of a century now, and it's enough to convince me that we may have already passed the point of no return. [Krimel] I hope it is so, Ham. I thought and dreamed that it was so. If I were prayerful man, I would pray that some day we are finally able to make it so. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
