[Krimel]: > If you want to discuss this kind of thing it would help > to begin by understanding the terms you use. The > egalitarian movement began in France. It comes from > a French root. It first reared its ugly head in the United > States with these words, "We hold these truths to be > self evident, that all men are created equal..."
You'll note that I prefaced my comments with the statement "I don't like to use this forum for political debate," and your "clinical advice" is one of the reasons why. I'm well aware of the etymology of 'egalitarianism' and that the French revolutionists' motto was Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité. I'm also aware that the Declaration of Independence began with a statement that included the phrase "all men are created equal." However, being CREATED equal does not give man the right to equal respect, wealth, or social esteem throughout his lifetime, for such distinctions must be earned by the individual in question. This bit of humanistic logic has been conveniently swept aside by the modern liberal movement for whom "equality" demands a "level playing field". Political Correctness in today's vernacular translates to treating everyone alike, regardless of their moral values, educational level, citizenship status, or record of achievement. I suppose it was to be expected that my comments would bring accusations of "racism". Actually, I was responding to your question as to how postmodernism relates to collectivism. And the alien culture I was referring to is, of course, the collectivist culture of Islam, whose encroachment on the Free World is proving to be a problem in both Europe and America. Rather than engage in a debate about how egalitarian our nation is, and to what extent the principles of egalitarianism define our society, I refer you to Tony Blankley's essay on "How a collectivist mentality endangers peace"' which I'll be running on my Values Page next week, starting Sunday. You can access this at www.essentialism.net/balance.htm. Blankley, a British-born journalist who writes for The Washington Post, makes the point more eloquently than I can, plus he's much more up to date with political/social developments in the U.S. and his native country. I'll let the matter of postmodern education and the multicultural indoctrination of our children rest until a later time. Thanks for your reply and advice, Krimel. --Ham >[Krimel]:. > This is an egalitarian country founded on egalitarian principles. It is > the > warp and weft of who we are as Americans. We have not always lived up to > these principles. There is the fundamental hypocrisy of the constitution > declaring indentured peoples and Indians as three fifths person and its > failure to acknowledge women as full partners in democracy. In fact it > took > more than a century and three amendments to the constitution to make our > chief governing document live up to the egalitarian principles spelled out > in the documents that severed our ties with Europe. > > But you statement belies its high falootin' tone. Social equality? Don't > you > mean equality under the law? Alien culture? Well, I guess it's obvious who > "they" are. "...Discrimination is a bad word?" You must really miss those > Black Only signs on restrooms and water fountains. > > [Ham] > Last week the head of the Islamic Society of North America demanded that > Sen. John McCain stop using the word "Islamic" to describe the terrorists, > while the Canadian-born journalist Mark Steyn is awaiting trial before the > Canadian and British Human Rights Commission for the crime of "hate > speech" > for writing a book warning against the dangers of Islam overwhelming > Europe. > > In Britain, non-Muslims are being banned from public swimming pools during > prayer time. > > It's interesting that radical Islam places little value on the individual > who, in this country at least, was traditionally respected above the tribe > or collective group. > > [Krimel] > It is becoming clearer to me why you feel the need to make up your own > language since you don't fully understand the words the rest of us use; > like > egalitarian. So I will ignore this screed on Islam other than to point out > that you don't seem to know anything about it, other than it is "baaaaaad" > > [Ham] > But America's educational system has mandated that schools teach > third-world cultural values as equal to those of the Free World. > This is all part of modern liberalism, of course, whose agenda is to > redistribute wealth through entitlements and welfare programs that > will transform entrepreneurial capitalism into collective socialism. > > [Krimel] > This is just, well to put it plainly utter bullshit. Teaching children > that > there are 'other' cultures and that 'other' people think differently than > we > do is not at all the same thing as saying that they are better than us. We > can for example teach children that there are cannibals in the world and > that they engage in this practice for reasons that are sensible, even > spiritual within the context of cannibal culture; without encouraging > cannibalism. Never mind the fact that there is plenty of time in the > elementary and secondary curriculum for the study of American History and > government which are still required in most states I believe. > > "Redistribution of wealth through welfare and entitlements..." now there > is > a mouth full of buzz words. Could their meaning be any more transparent? > > [Ham] > It's no coincidence that sociologists, authors, and film-makers see this > as > an opportunity to exploit 'political correctness' in terms of > collectivism. > They play down the individual and extoll the masses under the banner of > "progressive reform". > > [Krimel] > Recognizing the rights and humanity of all those "other" people really > sticks in your craw doesn't it? I realize that you are old, even older > than > me and that's really old; but Ham part of growing up means growing. Not > just > growing in size but growing as a person. Things were different when I was > a > lad too I remember the Black Only signs and segregated schools but "When I > was a child I spoke as a child, I understood as a child I thought as a > child; but when I became a man I put away childish things." > > Some of those childish things I miss but some were hateful and poisonous > and > I repent of them. Just the other day I posted a link to a John Stewart > riff > on the virtues of elitism, what you express here is the dark side of that > term. I thought your rants on the glory of the individual were rooted in > something sincere. But this post makes it clear that what you really want > is > a return to the days of your youth when government protected you from > those > filthy others and made sure that women held their tongue and stayed in > their > place. > > [Ham] > Philosophers like Pirsig have joined the trend by > positing subjectivity as a myth and portraying man and his intellectual > faculties as products of biological and social evolution. Ideas, values, > principles and concepts are no longer credited to the individual but are > defined as levels or patterns of some collective intelligence, force, or > cosmic realm. And so on. > > [Krimel] > Ham, philosophy is the love of wisdom. You have nothing to say about love > or > wisdom. > > [Ham] > You may call my concern about the postmodern mindset "paranoia", but you > can't deny the current worldview that I've described. > > [Krimel] > Ok that was the egalitarian part. The point of this post was supposed to > be > for you to show how collectivism relates to postmodernism. This being your > only reference to postmodernism it is obvious you have no idea what it is > other than it sounds "baaaaaad". > > I don't deny the world view you have described at all. I understand it > better than most here and I am revolted by it. Revolted intellectually. > Revolted emotionally. Revolted viscerally. I grew up with it in the south > and I watched it die what seemed a long slow death. But as you so clearly > demonstrate it isn't dead it just keeps morphing into something else. > Hiding > under different terms or forming into something like your private prayer > language, Hamish. I don't know what kind of stake we can eventually find > to > drive into its evil black heart. I don't know when we will be free of it, > obviously not today. > > [Ham] > I've witnessed the transformation of society for three-quarters of a > century now, and it's enough to convince me that we may have already > passed the point of no return. > > [Krimel] > I hope it is so, Ham. I thought and dreamed that it was so. If I were > prayerful man, I would pray that some day we are finally able to make > it so. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
