Hi DM, It needs to evolve on top of life (IMHO) ... so some complex self-regenerating organization is needed ... so if not "higher animals" then colonies of lower organisms possibly ... but I'm not necessarily talking biological life anyway.
I think I'm saying that however it was "constructed" we'd notice it was alive, creating and re-producing new organisms, before we noticed it was intelligent. (I did say this was speculative, right ?) Ian On Sat, Jun 7, 2008 at 3:15 PM, David M <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi Ian > ] > Is there intelligence at life's lower levels or only > with the higher animals do you think? > > David M > >> Matt, Krim, DM, >> >> (Sorry been outta circulation for a week) >> >> Not quite Matt. >> >> I'm saying even the "life" does not (necessarily) have to be >> biological. That could arise in complex systems. My point is that life >> will preceed intelligence (as it does in the MoQ) wherever it arises. >> >> The "artificiality" is simply a matter of perception (was my other >> point). ie seeing non-biological-life and thinking-with-non-meat as >> "artificial" is just our anthropocentic perspective. Being >> "engineered" is only one possible take on being artificial. - I don't >> believe life or intelligence will ever be "engineered" - not directly >> anyway ... as I went on to say. >> >> Ian >> >> On Fri, May 30, 2008 at 8:23 PM, Matt Kundert >> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>> >>> Hey Krimel, >>> >>> Krimel said to Ian: >>> You are right I must be missing your point. If you are saying that "life" >>> or "intelligence" can arise "naturally" out of printed circuits then I don't >>> think we are even using the same language. When you say intelligence is not >>> inherent in biological systems or that genes produce brains but not >>> intelligence this just seems to be adding subtlety at the expense of >>> intelligibility. >>> >>> Matt: >>> To intercede in a conversation I haven't been following closely at all, I >>> think Ian's point is that the idea behind the natural/artificial distinction >>> may be misplaced when talking about the idea of robots someday having >>> minds/consciousness like humans. As a pragmatist, I think Ian's stance is >>> that the mind/consciousness evolved naturally out of biological evolution, >>> that cultural evolution is predicated on biological, that whatever the mind >>> is, it is basically what happens when biological processes get really, >>> really complex. For pragmatists, traveling up what used to be called the >>> Great Chain of Being, or up Pirsig's static levels, is at root a continuum >>> of complexity. >>> >>> I think the example that is in point is Asimov's story that got made into >>> the Will Smith movie, I, Robot. At that level of robotic complexity, we--as >>> viewers in addition to the characters--have trouble knowing whether we >>> should treat them as "one of us," i.e. whether moral/legal categories apply >>> to them and how. _This_ is the pertinent question--not how they came to be. >>> The natural/artificial distinction becomes outmoded. >>> >>> Besides, I think Ian might also be playing at breaking down the >>> distinction along the lines of, "When did our activities cease to be >>> natural?" One can cry foul for common sense, but as a philosophical point, >>> I have some sympathy because of our Enlightenment philosophical heritage, >>> which treats "natural" as a moral category of approbation, and hence Will >>> Smith's difficulty in treating robots morally (ya' know, feeling remorse for >>> shooting them in the head and such). >>> >>> Matt >>> _________________________________________________________________ >>> Give to a good cause with every e-mail. Join the i'm Initiative from >>> Microsoft. >>> http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Join/Default.aspx?souce=EML_WL_ GoodCause >>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>> Archives: >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ >>> >> Moq_Discuss mailing list >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> Archives: >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ >> > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
