"My personal feeling is that this is how any further improvement of the world will be done: by individuals making Quality decisions and that's all. God, I don't want to have any more enthusiasm for big programs full of social planning for big masses of people that leave individual Quality out. These can be left alone for a while. There's a place for them but they've got to be built on a foundation of Quality within the individuals involved. We've had that individual Quality in the past, exploited it as a natural resource without knowing it, and now it's just about depleted. Everyone's just about out of gumption. And I think it's about time to return to the rebuilding of this American resource...individual worth. There are political reactionaries who've been saying something close to this for years. I'm not one of them, but to the extent they're talking about real individual worth and not just an excuse for giving more money to the rich, they're right. We do need a return to individual integrity, self-reliance and old-fashioned gumption. We really do".
Robert M. Pirsig Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance Ayn Rand could have written that. Platt On Sun, Jul 13, 2008 at 2:22 PM, david buchanan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Ham and Platt: > > Platt said: > Of all the arrogant statements, this takes the proverbial cake , , , as if > the entire intellectual level resides in academia. If I've learned one thing > from Pirsig it's that academia is the last place to look if you want to find > an original thought. > > dmb replies: > There are valid reasons to criticize the academic world, but rejecting Ayn > Rand is not one of them. One is unlikely to find mystics there, for example. > Of course I'm not equating academia and the intellectual level but its > pretty darn obvious that intellectual quality matters there and the chances > are good that you'll find some serious intellectuals there. Just as the > social level has its immune system, when we add them up the judgments made > by people in this world produce the same effect. They amount to a defense of > intellectual values and intellectual quality. Its not perfect, of course, > and there's always a danger that good things will be kept out. But for the > most part, it does a good job of keeping out a whole bunch of non-sense. > Pirsig certainly has a point about philosophological thinking, but we hear > the same sort of "academia is too stuffy for my ideas" complaint from > UFOlogists, New Agers and all kinds of crackpots so raising the point just > isn't enough. Anyway, if there is a reason why Ayn Rand shouldn't be laughed > at, shouldn't be kept out I'd like to know what it is. > > Besides, Platt, you're being extremely disingenuous in citing Pirsig to > refute this. You know as well as I do that Pirsig has criticized Ayn Rand on > this very point. He said anyone who takes her view of the individual has a > lot of splainin' to do because it is at odds with science and the MOQ. I > was lucky and found a series of quotes that Ant put together for Ham nearly > a year ago and that's one of them. Apparently you were unmoved and > unpersuaded by it. How do you spell "incorrigible"? Anyway, this is what Ant > McWatt said to Ham the last time this topic came up: > > The latter quote of Pirsig's used by Platt here (Note 130) has been > severely > edited and the two other annotations Pirsig made about the "individual" in > "Lila's Child" omitted altogether. As such, Pirsig's understanding of the > individual has been distorted by Platt so in the following, as a > "corrective", I have quoted Note 130 in full as well as these two other > annotations: > > [130] "The word 'I' like the word 'self' is one of the trickiest words in > any metaphysics. Sometimes it is an object, a human body; sometimes it is a > subject, a human mind. I believe there are number of philosophic systems, > notably Ayn Rand's 'Objectivism,' that call the 'I' or 'individual' the > central reality. Buddhists say it is an illusion. So do scientists. The MOQ > says it is a collection of static patterns capable of apprehending Dynamic > Quality. I think that if you identify the 'I' with the intellect and > nothing > else you are taking an unusual position that may need some defending." > > Critically (and this is what Platt tends to ignore), in Note 77 of Lila's > Child, we see that Pirsig confirms that his view of the self concurs with > the one held by Buddhism: > > "It's important to remember that both science and Eastern religions regard > 'the individual' as an empty concept. It is literally a figure of speech. > If > you start assigning a concrete reality to it, you will find yourself in a > philosophic quandary." > > Finally, in the section of "Lila's Child" titled "Questions and Answers" > (where Dan clarifies a number of issues with Pirsig including the > individual), note Pirsig's answer here: > > "The Buddhists would say [the individual] it is certainly central to a > concept of reality but it is not central to or even a part of reality > itself. Enlightenment involves getting rid of the concept of 'I' (small > self) and seeing the reality in which the small self is absent (big self)." > > This analogy is explained further by Pirsig in the following quote: > > "The Sioux concept of self and higher self is one I hadn't heard of. At > first sight it seems like a striking confirmation of the universality of > mystic understanding. In Zen Buddhism 'Big-Self' and 'small-self' are > fundamental teaching concepts. The small-self, the static patterns of ego, > is attracted by the 'perfume' of the 'Big-Self' which it senses is around > but cannot find or even identify. (There is a Hindu parable in which a > small > fish says, 'Mother, I have searched everywhere, but I cannot find this > thing > they call water'). Through suppression of the small-self by meditation or > fasting or vision quests or other disciplines, the Big-Self can be revealed > in a moment sometimes called 180 degrees enlightenment. Then a long > discipline is undertaken by which the Big-Self takes over and dissolves the > small-self into a 360 degrees enlightenment or full Buddhahood." (Pirsig > to > McWatt, January 14th 1994) > > Just so you know, > dmb > > Today's post was sponsored by the letter "I". > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Need to know now? Get instant answers with Windows Live Messenger. > > http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/connect_your_way.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_messenger_072008 > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
