Which was precisely my point Platt ... every subsequent sentence is qualified, all except the opening one.
Individual quality as the basis of socially organised institutions (of all kinds), not instead of ... Ian On Sun, Jul 13, 2008 at 5:12 PM, Platt Holden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Nice try. Read the first sentence again. Note ". . . and that's all." > > "My personal feeling is that this is how any further improvement of the > world will be done: by individuals making Quality decisions and that's all." > > > On Sun, Jul 13, 2008 at 3:40 PM, Ian Glendinning <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > >> No Platt, >> >> Ayn Rand stops at >> "I don't want to have any more enthusiasm for big programs full of >> social planning for big masses of people." FULL STOP >> >> She leaves out >> "... THAT leave individual Quality out". >> ".... for a WHILE." >> "... THERE'S a place for them. THEY'VE got to be built ... " >> >> Unlike the more balanced and enlightened Pirsig. >> Ian >> >> On Sun, Jul 13, 2008 at 3:11 PM, Platt Holden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> wrote: >> > "My personal feeling is that this is how any further improvement of the >> > world will be done: by individuals making Quality decisions and that's >> all. >> > God, I don't want to have any more enthusiasm for big programs full of >> > social planning for big masses of people that leave individual Quality >> out. >> > These can be left alone for a while. There's a place for them but they've >> > got to be built on a foundation of Quality within the individuals >> involved. >> > We've had that individual Quality in the past, exploited it as a natural >> > resource without knowing it, and now it's just about depleted. Everyone's >> > just about out of gumption. And I think it's about time to return to the >> > rebuilding of this American resource...individual worth. There are >> political >> > reactionaries who've been saying something close to this for years. I'm >> not >> > one of them, but to the extent they're talking about real individual >> worth >> > and not just an excuse for giving more money to the rich, they're right. >> We >> > do need a return to individual integrity, self-reliance and old-fashioned >> > gumption. We really do". >> > >> > Robert M. Pirsig >> > Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance >> > >> > Ayn Rand could have written that. >> > >> > Platt >> > >> > >> > On Sun, Jul 13, 2008 at 2:22 PM, david buchanan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> > wrote: >> > >> >> >> >> Ham and Platt: >> >> >> >> Platt said: >> >> Of all the arrogant statements, this takes the proverbial cake , , , as >> if >> >> the entire intellectual level resides in academia. If I've learned one >> thing >> >> from Pirsig it's that academia is the last place to look if you want to >> find >> >> an original thought. >> >> >> >> dmb replies: >> >> There are valid reasons to criticize the academic world, but rejecting >> Ayn >> >> Rand is not one of them. One is unlikely to find mystics there, for >> example. >> >> Of course I'm not equating academia and the intellectual level but its >> >> pretty darn obvious that intellectual quality matters there and the >> chances >> >> are good that you'll find some serious intellectuals there. Just as the >> >> social level has its immune system, when we add them up the judgments >> made >> >> by people in this world produce the same effect. They amount to a >> defense of >> >> intellectual values and intellectual quality. Its not perfect, of >> course, >> >> and there's always a danger that good things will be kept out. But for >> the >> >> most part, it does a good job of keeping out a whole bunch of non-sense. >> >> Pirsig certainly has a point about philosophological thinking, but we >> hear >> >> the same sort of "academia is too stuffy for my ideas" complaint from >> >> UFOlogists, New Agers and all kinds of crackpots so raising the point >> just >> >> isn't enough. Anyway, if there is a reason why Ayn Rand shouldn't be >> laughed >> >> at, shouldn't be kept out I'd like to know what it is. >> >> >> >> Besides, Platt, you're being extremely disingenuous in citing Pirsig to >> >> refute this. You know as well as I do that Pirsig has criticized Ayn >> Rand on >> >> this very point. He said anyone who takes her view of the individual has >> a >> >> lot of splainin' to do because it is at odds with science and the MOQ. >> I >> >> was lucky and found a series of quotes that Ant put together for Ham >> nearly >> >> a year ago and that's one of them. Apparently you were unmoved and >> >> unpersuaded by it. How do you spell "incorrigible"? Anyway, this is what >> Ant >> >> McWatt said to Ham the last time this topic came up: >> >> >> >> The latter quote of Pirsig's used by Platt here (Note 130) has been >> >> severely >> >> edited and the two other annotations Pirsig made about the "individual" >> in >> >> "Lila's Child" omitted altogether. As such, Pirsig's understanding of >> the >> >> individual has been distorted by Platt so in the following, as a >> >> "corrective", I have quoted Note 130 in full as well as these two other >> >> annotations: >> >> >> >> [130] "The word 'I' like the word 'self' is one of the trickiest words >> in >> >> any metaphysics. Sometimes it is an object, a human body; sometimes it >> is a >> >> subject, a human mind. I believe there are number of philosophic >> systems, >> >> notably Ayn Rand's 'Objectivism,' that call the 'I' or 'individual' the >> >> central reality. Buddhists say it is an illusion. So do scientists. The >> MOQ >> >> says it is a collection of static patterns capable of apprehending >> Dynamic >> >> Quality. I think that if you identify the 'I' with the intellect and >> >> nothing >> >> else you are taking an unusual position that may need some defending." >> >> >> >> Critically (and this is what Platt tends to ignore), in Note 77 of >> Lila's >> >> Child, we see that Pirsig confirms that his view of the self concurs >> with >> >> the one held by Buddhism: >> >> >> >> "It's important to remember that both science and Eastern religions >> regard >> >> 'the individual' as an empty concept. It is literally a figure of >> speech. >> >> If >> >> you start assigning a concrete reality to it, you will find yourself in >> a >> >> philosophic quandary." >> >> >> >> Finally, in the section of "Lila's Child" titled "Questions and Answers" >> >> (where Dan clarifies a number of issues with Pirsig including the >> >> individual), note Pirsig's answer here: >> >> >> >> "The Buddhists would say [the individual] it is certainly central to a >> >> concept of reality but it is not central to or even a part of reality >> >> itself. Enlightenment involves getting rid of the concept of 'I' (small >> >> self) and seeing the reality in which the small self is absent (big >> self)." >> >> >> >> This analogy is explained further by Pirsig in the following quote: >> >> >> >> "The Sioux concept of self and higher self is one I hadn't heard of. At >> >> first sight it seems like a striking confirmation of the universality of >> >> mystic understanding. In Zen Buddhism 'Big-Self' and 'small-self' are >> >> fundamental teaching concepts. The small-self, the static patterns of >> ego, >> >> is attracted by the 'perfume' of the 'Big-Self' which it senses is >> around >> >> but cannot find or even identify. (There is a Hindu parable in which a >> >> small >> >> fish says, 'Mother, I have searched everywhere, but I cannot find this >> >> thing >> >> they call water'). Through suppression of the small-self by meditation >> or >> >> fasting or vision quests or other disciplines, the Big-Self can be >> revealed >> >> in a moment sometimes called 180 degrees enlightenment. Then a long >> >> discipline is undertaken by which the Big-Self takes over and dissolves >> the >> >> small-self into a 360 degrees enlightenment or full Buddhahood." >> (Pirsig >> >> to >> >> McWatt, January 14th 1994) >> >> >> >> Just so you know, >> >> dmb >> >> >> >> Today's post was sponsored by the letter "I". >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _________________________________________________________________ >> >> Need to know now? 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