Nice try. Read the first sentence again. Note ". . . and that's all."
"My personal feeling is that this is how any further improvement of the world will be done: by individuals making Quality decisions and that's all." On Sun, Jul 13, 2008 at 3:40 PM, Ian Glendinning <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > No Platt, > > Ayn Rand stops at > "I don't want to have any more enthusiasm for big programs full of > social planning for big masses of people." FULL STOP > > She leaves out > "... THAT leave individual Quality out". > ".... for a WHILE." > "... THERE'S a place for them. THEY'VE got to be built ... " > > Unlike the more balanced and enlightened Pirsig. > Ian > > On Sun, Jul 13, 2008 at 3:11 PM, Platt Holden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > "My personal feeling is that this is how any further improvement of the > > world will be done: by individuals making Quality decisions and that's > all. > > God, I don't want to have any more enthusiasm for big programs full of > > social planning for big masses of people that leave individual Quality > out. > > These can be left alone for a while. There's a place for them but they've > > got to be built on a foundation of Quality within the individuals > involved. > > We've had that individual Quality in the past, exploited it as a natural > > resource without knowing it, and now it's just about depleted. Everyone's > > just about out of gumption. And I think it's about time to return to the > > rebuilding of this American resource...individual worth. There are > political > > reactionaries who've been saying something close to this for years. I'm > not > > one of them, but to the extent they're talking about real individual > worth > > and not just an excuse for giving more money to the rich, they're right. > We > > do need a return to individual integrity, self-reliance and old-fashioned > > gumption. We really do". > > > > Robert M. Pirsig > > Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance > > > > Ayn Rand could have written that. > > > > Platt > > > > > > On Sun, Jul 13, 2008 at 2:22 PM, david buchanan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > wrote: > > > >> > >> Ham and Platt: > >> > >> Platt said: > >> Of all the arrogant statements, this takes the proverbial cake , , , as > if > >> the entire intellectual level resides in academia. If I've learned one > thing > >> from Pirsig it's that academia is the last place to look if you want to > find > >> an original thought. > >> > >> dmb replies: > >> There are valid reasons to criticize the academic world, but rejecting > Ayn > >> Rand is not one of them. One is unlikely to find mystics there, for > example. > >> Of course I'm not equating academia and the intellectual level but its > >> pretty darn obvious that intellectual quality matters there and the > chances > >> are good that you'll find some serious intellectuals there. Just as the > >> social level has its immune system, when we add them up the judgments > made > >> by people in this world produce the same effect. They amount to a > defense of > >> intellectual values and intellectual quality. Its not perfect, of > course, > >> and there's always a danger that good things will be kept out. But for > the > >> most part, it does a good job of keeping out a whole bunch of non-sense. > >> Pirsig certainly has a point about philosophological thinking, but we > hear > >> the same sort of "academia is too stuffy for my ideas" complaint from > >> UFOlogists, New Agers and all kinds of crackpots so raising the point > just > >> isn't enough. Anyway, if there is a reason why Ayn Rand shouldn't be > laughed > >> at, shouldn't be kept out I'd like to know what it is. > >> > >> Besides, Platt, you're being extremely disingenuous in citing Pirsig to > >> refute this. You know as well as I do that Pirsig has criticized Ayn > Rand on > >> this very point. He said anyone who takes her view of the individual has > a > >> lot of splainin' to do because it is at odds with science and the MOQ. > I > >> was lucky and found a series of quotes that Ant put together for Ham > nearly > >> a year ago and that's one of them. Apparently you were unmoved and > >> unpersuaded by it. How do you spell "incorrigible"? Anyway, this is what > Ant > >> McWatt said to Ham the last time this topic came up: > >> > >> The latter quote of Pirsig's used by Platt here (Note 130) has been > >> severely > >> edited and the two other annotations Pirsig made about the "individual" > in > >> "Lila's Child" omitted altogether. As such, Pirsig's understanding of > the > >> individual has been distorted by Platt so in the following, as a > >> "corrective", I have quoted Note 130 in full as well as these two other > >> annotations: > >> > >> [130] "The word 'I' like the word 'self' is one of the trickiest words > in > >> any metaphysics. Sometimes it is an object, a human body; sometimes it > is a > >> subject, a human mind. I believe there are number of philosophic > systems, > >> notably Ayn Rand's 'Objectivism,' that call the 'I' or 'individual' the > >> central reality. Buddhists say it is an illusion. So do scientists. The > MOQ > >> says it is a collection of static patterns capable of apprehending > Dynamic > >> Quality. I think that if you identify the 'I' with the intellect and > >> nothing > >> else you are taking an unusual position that may need some defending." > >> > >> Critically (and this is what Platt tends to ignore), in Note 77 of > Lila's > >> Child, we see that Pirsig confirms that his view of the self concurs > with > >> the one held by Buddhism: > >> > >> "It's important to remember that both science and Eastern religions > regard > >> 'the individual' as an empty concept. It is literally a figure of > speech. > >> If > >> you start assigning a concrete reality to it, you will find yourself in > a > >> philosophic quandary." > >> > >> Finally, in the section of "Lila's Child" titled "Questions and Answers" > >> (where Dan clarifies a number of issues with Pirsig including the > >> individual), note Pirsig's answer here: > >> > >> "The Buddhists would say [the individual] it is certainly central to a > >> concept of reality but it is not central to or even a part of reality > >> itself. Enlightenment involves getting rid of the concept of 'I' (small > >> self) and seeing the reality in which the small self is absent (big > self)." > >> > >> This analogy is explained further by Pirsig in the following quote: > >> > >> "The Sioux concept of self and higher self is one I hadn't heard of. At > >> first sight it seems like a striking confirmation of the universality of > >> mystic understanding. In Zen Buddhism 'Big-Self' and 'small-self' are > >> fundamental teaching concepts. The small-self, the static patterns of > ego, > >> is attracted by the 'perfume' of the 'Big-Self' which it senses is > around > >> but cannot find or even identify. (There is a Hindu parable in which a > >> small > >> fish says, 'Mother, I have searched everywhere, but I cannot find this > >> thing > >> they call water'). Through suppression of the small-self by meditation > or > >> fasting or vision quests or other disciplines, the Big-Self can be > revealed > >> in a moment sometimes called 180 degrees enlightenment. Then a long > >> discipline is undertaken by which the Big-Self takes over and dissolves > the > >> small-self into a 360 degrees enlightenment or full Buddhahood." > (Pirsig > >> to > >> McWatt, January 14th 1994) > >> > >> Just so you know, > >> dmb > >> > >> Today's post was sponsored by the letter "I". > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> _________________________________________________________________ > >> Need to know now? 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