DMB. Sun July 13 you wrote
> The conflict between the social and intellectual values isn't > immediately obvious if we think of the fourth level as simply the capacity > to manipulate symbols. At least a small "alms".. > Seems to me that the rules of logic and grammar and the way these forms > govern the quality of a thing called truth. Logic (intelligence) and language were part of the human reality for umpteen thousands of years without any notion of objectivity (truth) emerged. > In the MOQ, truth is not THEE Truth with a capital "T". It is simply a > certain kind of good, a certain kind of excellence. True things are > intellectually beautiful things, if you will. Everything is "certain kinds of good" (patterns of value) seen from the MOQ, but the static levels aren't aware of the Q context, they regard each other as evil and it's this inter-level conflict that Christoffer talks about. What value must the intellectual level display to be in conflict with the social level? > In this sense, clarity, precision, simplicity and coherence are among > the aesthetic qualities we expect at that level. Ancient people (before the intellectual level) appreciated these qualities just as much as ourselves. The beauty, simplicity and precision of the cave paintings, the Inca masonry, the Pyramids ...etc. ad infinitum are striking > In other words, the symbols so manipulated > have to add up. They have to work. And there is a moral dimension > pervading this process that is not apparent when we say something like, > "two plus two equals four". The conflict comes when the conclusions > drawn and the predictions are made. Sometimes this process produces > questions about and criticisms of social level values. Intellectual > analysis of the social situation raises questions about the legitimacy > and rationality of the divine right of kings, the legality and morality > of wars of aggression, the truthfulness of religious claims and all > sorts of things. Language is the foremost example of symbol manipulation and social level people had language and also manipulated symbols in calculations, the result of which "added up" in works of striking beauty About nobility and kings being debunked and religious dogmas questioned due to intellect's progress is correct enough, but this happened due to intellect's RATIONALITY that found it irrational that some people had privileges. > We see this conflict in the news every single day. Did you catch > Platt's post the other day, the one where he quotes from the Washington > Times, re-asserting the old Victorian attitudes about war and > patriotism? That's a pretty typical example of the social/intellectual > conflict in the daily news. Both sides are manipulating symbols to > defend their values but we have to look at the quality of that defense > and the value of what's being defended. As Pirsig points out, it can be > confusing because intellectual skills can be used to defend > anti-intellectual values and intellectual values are sometimes defended > with great sentiment and passion. The social and intellectual values are incompatible but in the West intellect has got the upper hand,.not even the the most reactionary would dream of abolishing democracy. The conflict has moved, now the West keep pushing intellectual values on the social- steeped Islamic world. > They're not always in conflict, of course. If social level patterns are > aimed at preserving society and intellectual patterns are aimed at > preserving truths, then they don't have opposed goals so much as > different goals. But sometimes intellectual truth does expose social > level morality for what it is and war is a great example. The giant > doesn't mind grinding up a few bodies to preserve itself and we still > hear all sorts of quasi-religious glorifications of war and warriors > from the more patriotic types. As we see so clearly in the case of the > war in Iraq, the truth has nothing to do with it. "Intellectual patterns aimed at preserving truths" A bit awkward. The ideal intellect-controlled community is democracy with free press, speech ..etc.. all those patterns that Pirsig lists, and social value is definitely not aimed at preserving THIS kind of community. Its ideal community is the Taliban kind which was good when social value rose above biological value, but - seen from intellect - is sheer barbary. About war (waged by democracies) it's not intellect failing to expose social morality, rather circumstances bringing the social level into focus. When under attack (and USA was attacked the 9/11) the social (emotional) level is momentarily the safe latch, but when the immediate danger is over focus rebounds to the intellectual level. Enough for now Bodvar Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
