Christoffer
On 17 July you wrote:
> Bo:
> > The ideal intellect-controlled community is democracy with free
> > press, speech ..etc.. all those patterns that Pirsig lists
> A small point, but -
> I must protest here. Democracy is "the rule of the people" and so it
> naturally follows that democracy is only MOQ-moral if the people
> ruling is ruled by the intellectual level above the social level. This
> is not the case. Anywhere.
"Objection sustained your honor". I know that the term
"democracy" basically means people's rule, but the way we use it
includes the whole parliamentary system. Doesn't it?
----------------------------------------------------------
The other post for me of the same date is related to it:
> [Bodvar]
> > The social-intellectual relationship has been equally difficult in
> > intellectual- and social-steeped cultures (because no level knows
> > the Q context) and Pirsig (correctly) believes that the MOQ will
> > alleviate it. However I disagree with his idea that intellect can be
> > enlightened to see that its "devaluation" of social patterns creates a
> > social nightmare. Intellect is static and must by definition pursue its
> > mission. It's the MOQ that gives us the grand view and it is no
> > intellectual sub-set. Intellect is MOQ's sub-set!!.
> [Chris]
> I think this is a very important point Bo, but may I ask you to point out
> a static intellectual value pattern please, and can you tell me why that
> example is not a social pattern (where is the fundamental conflict?) and
> then we can take it from there?
To point out one intellectual pattern ... that isn't social too is
impossible because all levels are on top of the former, there is no
intellectual patten that doesn't have a social base. For instance
democracy (that Pirsig lists among intellectual patterns) consists of
a society that relegates power to a house of representatives that
authorize a government to administer its laws with an independent
judicial system monitoring it all. Democracy's INTELLECTUALITY
is this political system that prevents social power lust to flourish.
To make it easier to understand the level hierarchy is to see them
in their negative capacity (which IS the MOQ way) As dynamic
escapes from the strictures of the former level. Biology negates
inorganic death and its primary value is feeding & breeding. This
"dog eats dog" existence is what social value escaped by creating
a reality that transcends biological life. This god-ruled reality was
what intellect in its turn found oppressive and created the
objective-skeptical-impartial attitude to conquer it.
It took several thousand years from the Greek thinkers began to
question the social (mythological-religious) explanation till intellect
dominated the Western out-look yet, ZAMM gives a concise
description of this process:
Early Greek philosophy represented the first conscious
search for what was imperishable in the affairs of men. Up
to then what was imperishable was within the domain of
the Gods, the myths. But now, as a result of the growing
impartiality of the Greeks to the world around them, there
was an increasing power of abstraction which permitted
them to regard the old Greek mythos not as revealed truth
but as imaginative creations of art. This consciousness,
which had never existed anywhere before in the world,
spelled a whole new level of transcendence for the Greek
civilization.
Did I stray too far?
Bodvar
Moq_Discuss mailing list
Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
Archives:
http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
