[Bo] Your understanding of the Quality Idea is so weak that it's hard to argue with you.
[Krimel] It is this kind of condescending crap that leads us onto the psycho-path, don't you think? [Bo] But only this; If all ideas, thoughts, world views .. whatever are "intellectual glasses", then religions in the classic sense are such glasses and so were the old Mythologies and whatever "explanations of existence" human beings have ever harbored, and that leaves MOQ's intellectual level meaningless. [Krimel] All of those things are indeed "intellectual glasses". And if this creates problems for your understanding of the intellectual level then the problem is yours. [Bo] TiT? Is that Kant's "thing in itself"? Anyway, the fourth level has evolved through so many stages that it's hard to discern its S/O content at all times. One must understand the enormity of MOQ to see the gigantic scope of the levels. All are still around as part of ourselves, but I find the alleged time when (for instance) the social level was leading edge most useful in conveying what it is what intellect is to be a break with it. [Krimel] I don't thing evolution proceeds in "stages". It proceeds through a process of iteration. Each newly born, hatched or sprouted living thing is one iteration in the ongoing process of life. When we talk about species we are talking about the distribution of particular inherited traits. Individuals who share enough traits in common are lumped together as a species or otherwise appropriately places within the biological system of taxonomy. But there are no stages just ongoing shifts in the probability distribution of traits. What the MoQ might offer us is a way of understand how and why those probabilities shift. Mainly they shift in response to changes in the environment. If the environment is static then those probability distribution will remain static as well. Introducing DQ or change into the environment injects those probability distributions with uncertainty and the result of such change will not be known until stability is restored. [Bo] The social level has little to do with "municipal services" as some seems to believe, but is - what from intellect looks - irrational, something that is best displayed these days by the islamists, their total devotion and disregard of own safety/life. This we only connect with religion to-day, but was WAS the ancient/myth/social times' very center. For instance in "The Iliad" where the heroes love and hate and fight with total abandon, the "attitude" Pirsig calls Aretê in ZAMM. [Krimel] I do not think "social" refers to municipal services nor do I think that the social is irrational. Social patterns like biological patterns evolve. Social roles, division of labor, rules of conduct, reduce uncertainty in day to day affairs. There is nothing irrational about this. They are to a degree arbitrary but they serve highly useful functions and these functions are necessary within all human societies. The appearance of irrationality and arbitrariness arise from the conditions under which the society evolves. But in the end social traits and societies live or die based on whether they are able to survive from iteration to iteration. [Bo] As said, intellect - SOM - has evolved through many phases, I don't know when the subject/object terms entered, nor when it took the mind/matter form, but the point is that notions like Bohr's are depended on the millenniums of speculations about what IS and what just seems to be. A question totally and utterly absent in the ancient, mythological - what MOQ calls - social epoch. It's still present, but this said perspective is needed to understand what's it all about. Matter in the the "substance" sense may have been undermined, but as said to Ian: the conviction that there is a "nature" independent of "culture" is still going strong. [Krimel] I would say that the perception of self and other is inborn and emerges early on in the development of every human being. The relationship of self to other, the role of self and the understanding of other are certainly socially mediated and there can be a host of intellectual trapping hung around them but in the end I would say that perception is a function of being a living being with a modicum of self awareness. Furthermore being such a being enhances ones probability of participating in producing the next iteration. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
