----- Original Message -----
From: "Krimel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, July 25, 2008 2:07 PM
Subject: Re: [MD] Levels?
[Krimel]
I am arguing that chimps and ants and cavalry officers exhibit "social"
behavior and that any understanding of the MoQ that limits the "social" to
humans is flawed.
I don't think one has to become a Zuni to gain an understanding of Zuni
culture
anymore that a man can not understand pregnancy without becoming
pregnant.
Krimel,
You don't think a man is unaware of any important aspect of pregnancy?
Experience counts for nothing? Or maybe you think that if a man (like you)
isn't aware of something it doesn't count as experience. Your statement
seems to represent all the flaws in today's institutionalized medicine. It
is doubtful that a man you like you understands anything about women,
especially when it comes to reproduction.
I am too angry to write another word.
After all, an anthro who joins the Zunis does not lose her former
cultural perspective in the process. She would only understand what it is
like to be a convert to Zuni culture not what it is like to be raised
within
Zuni culture. See Nagel's paper "What It Is Like to Be a Bat".
Krimmel (sic) said:
Such commonalities must be part of the biological
level. But if you remove the biologically based elements of human social
behavior you really aren't left with much.
Ron:
you are making my point.
[Krimel]
If your point is that the "levels" are arbitrary and secondary then that
is
good news.
Ron:
If, technologically advanced extra-terrestrials made contact with us.
They would be confined to the biological level? I think MoQ leaves the
door open for multiple definitions of patterns within a level.
I think this is what Douglas Adams was doing by challenging our
assumptions of intellectual beings.
I think by virtue of Pirsigs immediate experience, we may only
accurately define that which we experience. This is not to mean that
other versions are not acceptable.
If I was abducted by those hyper-intellectual mice and lived with
them in their culture for a vast amount of time, I could give
an accurate human appraisal of mouse society.
I think Pirsig leaves the door open to Moq and does not
limit it to a anthropocentric perspective. He does remind us
that anthropomorphizim will exist and the only TRUE description
could only come from a member, the only perspective we can ever
get of another species society is a human interpretation.
Likewise the only interpretation we can understand of Zuni
society is through western social interpretation.
Consequently, our interpretation of MoQ is a human western society
interpretation of MoQ. It is a one size fits all intellectual method
Man, Mouse, Eastern, Western ect.... that may only be accurately define
by the culture that applies it.
[Krimel]
One of the things that sets humans apart from other species is our ability
to take on other points of view. We intentionally alter our own illusions
if
you will. This too is a developmental phenomenon. It begins at about nine
months when infants begin to share attention with their caregivers. They
look at what is being pointed at and they look at what another person
looks
at. This ability matures as children grow in a regular pattern that
develops
in similar fashion across dissimilar cultures. (Suggesting that it has a
strong biological basis)
It is this ability to see things from multiple points of view that makes
us
human. Any understanding any of us has of anything will be in large
measure
a personal, subjective understanding, unique to us. To the extent that our
understanding corresponds to the "object" in question or coincides with
the
understanding of others... Well that's gravy. That's what makes us "sane".
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