Ron:
THIS is what defines MYSTICISM. [Krimel] I don't get your point in this one. Ron: The experiences that coincide with others is called sanity, the ones that do not are mystical. It's the mystical experience which drives the dynamism of the social level If the individual can convey their own experience in a way that is believable or that society is open to particular types of mystical expression. ie: visions, religious experiences, art. [Krimel] I think this kind of romanticizing of mental illness really does a disservice to the mentally ill. Certainly culture plays a role in defining what constitutes deviant behavior. But there are physiologically based disorders that impair a person's ability to function under any set of conditions. They impair a person's ability to communicate with others, to distinguish between reality and fantasy, to have a personal sense of value or to feel any value at all. I don't think equating mentally illness with mysticism does justice to either the mystic or the mentally ill. [Ron] The mysticism of the shamans is the one you describe above; they have the ability "to take on other points of view. We intentionally alter our own illusions if you will." These mystical "other points of view" are taken to be more accurate than traditional "illusions" or preconceptions simply because they come from one who is trained or "ordained" to do so. [Krimel] The ability to take other points of view is universal among healthy members of our species. I meant nothing special by this. It is an ability that, as I said, begins at about nine months of age with shared attention and develops throughout the preschool years. Very young children tend to believe that everyone else sees what they see and knows what they know. There has been a great deal of research on this that I won't bore you with except to say that all I mean by seeing another point of view is our ability to understand that others don't see things the way we do. Ron: That's my point too, credibility and authoritativeness allows the society to adjust to those shifts in socially acceptable manners. Most adults Do tend to not understand why others don't see things they way they do. They get caught up in static patterns so much so we seldom realize we do it. (SOM) The old Shamans and likewise the local doctor wore many hats in the community, they were not only physicians but psychiatrists, ministers and scientists, well respected for their opinion. Community action usually hinged on their assessment. They dealt with emergent situations. They deal with the unknown and make some sort of sense of it for social consumption because your average citizen does not have the developed ability to shift and interpret emergent situations accurately. Or they may be mentally ill. As you state, but I counter that these people of position are social figures designated for this very purpose, they are chosen and trained. Krimel; The ability to shift our illusions is the foundation of our ability to imagine different outcomes for the future and to plan our actions to affect those outcomes that we desire. In so doing we alter our own illusions at will. Ron: Do you know how many people simply can NOT visualize, I have some experience in this, it's real handy being able to render. Most people do not have the ability which gives work to people like me who can. I was paid to visualize and render that visualization so others can understand what is being proposed. If everyone could do it I'd be out a job. Some peoples illusion shifting is more limited than others. There are a few here who have trouble shifting points of view. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
