On Tuesday 2 Sept 2008 Magnus writes to Krimel and DMB
I've tried to get through to you two before but you usually just ignore me,
are you just having eyes for eachother?
Anyway, if you happen to read this, I'm "actually" with Krimel on this one.
I don't think Pirsig has any good reasons to limit the social level to only
humans. DMB, you seems to only take his word for it but have you really
thought about what the social level is? Have you thought of any way to make
a metaphysically relevant? As you describe it, the MoQ becomes almost as
human centric as Ham's theories.
I guess you haven't read it but in my latest essay "The levels undressed", I
try to define what a level is, starting with the two assumptions
discreteness and dependence. Using that definition, I simply iterate through
the levels one by one to see what they are. And as you may guess, humans are
*not* involved in any one of them.
Magnus
Hi Magnus and all,
I enjoyed your essay very much. A system of levels interpreted in DQ
(undefined, conscious Subject) and SQ (defined, mechanical Object) terms is
difficult, and I see you avoided the difficulty. Undefined S is still
indefinable. Quantum is close to undefined on the first level.
For myself I view the evolution of S to be a part of historical experience,
the Hero, e.g. Pirsig. IMO Pirsig stops evolution at the Intellectual level
since further evolution of S into higher levels is indefinable, and he was
writing a book. However, Bo has argued convincingly for a meta-level which
objectifies the SOL level. This meta-level does not define S. Go the whole
hog and pay the postage! Evolution of S reveals an order of a higher
social-level and a higher intellectual-level evolution. A Hero remains
indefinable, but historically manifested. You can only know one when you
have seen one. A Hero goes to a higher social, or a higher intellectual
level and is only defined in the acceptance of heroism sometimes by history.
Joe
On 9/2/08 4:33 AM, "Magnus Berg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi Krimel and DMB
>
>> Krimel said: The problem here for the MoQ is that Pirsig denies the
>> importance of any species but humans at the social level.
>>
>> dmb says: No, the problem here for you is that want to equate human societies
>> with their biological antecedents. Drawing a distinction between the two is
>> not the same as saying that animals don't function well in groups or that
>> this is unimportant. Pirsig denies social level values to the animal world
>> simply because that what the term means in the MOQ. To insist that social
>> values exist among animals is simply shows that you're confused about what
>> the term refers to. Believe me, I understand that there are many other ways
>> to use the term but that's just not how its used in the MOQ. I think one
>> would have to be a reductionists to say that "separating out human social
>> behavior from biology is artificial" as you just did. In any case, you're
>> simply denying the distinction.
>
> I've tried to get through to you two before but you usually just ignore me,
> are
> you just having eyes for eachother?
>
> Anyway, if you happen to read this, I'm "actually" with Krimel on this one. I
> don't think Pirsig has any good reasons to limit the social level to only
> humans. DMB, you seems to only take his word for it but have you really
> thought
> about what the social level is? Have you thought of any way to make a
> metaphysically relevant? As you describe it, the MoQ becomes almost as human
> centric as Ham's theories.
>
> I guess you haven't read it but in my latest essay "The levels undressed", I
> try
> to define what a level is, starting with the two assumptions discreteness and
> dependence. Using that definition, I simply iterate through the levels one by
> one to see what they are. And as you may guess, humans are *not* involved in
> any
> one of them.
>
> Magnus
>
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