At 08:52 AM 9/12/2008, you wrote:
[Marsha]
There is no each!!! 'Each' is your fantasy, and I don't share it.
[Arlo]
They are fictions. You talk a talk you seem incapable of walking. None are any
more my fantasy than they are yours. You want to say you believe selves are
fictional, but you keep going on about "honesty". If selves are fictions,
Marsha, what is it that they should be "honest" about?
You've never seen me walk. What can you say about how I walk?
[Marsha]
You're just trying to justify your behavior, and that is one of deception.
Where the rules are known only to you.
[Arlo]
I've never once deceived anyone. What "rules" are known only to me? What
"behavior".
Okay, but I think I should leave your honesty open for further verification.
[Marsha]
Meanwhile I would want honesty to be part of the social transaction. Are you
stating that honesty means nothing to you?
[Arlo]
If selves are fictions, what is it that they should be "honest" about? You
accept or reject any fiction based on its value to you. There is no "honesty"
beyond that. Or, again, is this just a way of being able to say "selves are
fiction" but clinging to the notion of a "real self one should be honest
about"?
If I cannot see you because were using email, and you tell me you're
blue, but you're really orange, you are being dishonest. Maybe
you'll say it doesn't matter. But maybe I am planning on buying you
a pretty dress to match your color, so it does matter.
Let me ask this, again. Here is "SA". His maleness or femaleness in this forum
is a fiction s/he offers and you accept. It is no more and no less honest than
whether or not s/he is known as "Nick" or "Heather" in other contexts.
And, "Arlo" is a fiction. "SA" is a fiction. They are separate fictions here.
What difference does it make whether or not they share a body?
See above.
[Marsha]
Why are you hung up on this sexual gender thing? As far as I know
SA is a man.
'What if he isn't?' isn't a game I'm interested in playing.
[Arlo]
You said you'd feel deceived to find out "SA" exists in the body of a
biological female. That if "he" didn't reveal that truth to you upfront, he'd
be being deceptive.
Because I could make a mistake and buy him boxer shorts with hearts
when he would be happier to receive bikini panties.
Yes, I would think he was deceptive.
And yes, I know, its always convenient to want to say things but a pain in the
ass to deal with questions that problematize those things. I ask these
questions because everything you've been saying doesn't jive with what you say
you believe. Everything you've written points to your believing that there is
"a real self" with real characteristics that transcend time and
context, things
which the self "should be honest about".
What I've been saying all along, that the "Arlo" that is "real" is the "Arlo"
that is right here right now, and there is no realness behind that. You either
accept "Arlo" or you "reject" him. He either has value to you or he does not.
But his existence is "here". The shape of his corporeal host, or the other
selves that inhabit his gray matter are inconsequential.
This is a culture/language issue and you know it. Both are
structured for a self that is independent with a body and mind, and a
gender association. I admit I'm having trouble trying to explain
myself. But I think you are sounding very strange yourself. You
think all this talk about avatars, faces, fictions corporeal hosts
and sex-change operations is crystal clear? It is not clear to me.
[Marsha]
I'm going to say when you open your mouth you speak the truth as best
you can. Seems that concept is difficult for you. Why?
[Arlo]
The difficulty seems to be your trying to have selves as fictions
but also have
"truths" about them. I accept the fictional "SA" here without the
need for some
"truth" you seem to need. As I've said all along, the only "truth" I
care about
is the "reality" of the "SA" here.
No 'selves as fictions', only process. No nouns, only
verbs. Communication with honesty. Should I spell it out with
magnetic letters on a refrigerator? And yes, honesty is something I
want in communication.
Your harping about "honesty" points to a self that is not fictional, but
"real". All fine and good, but stop pretending you think selves are fictional.
Selves are fictional. And yes I want the process of honesty to be
with the process of communication.
[Marsha]
No independent self, and no fictitious selves. Think process. Part of the
process of being a self should include honesty.
[Arlo]
Again, "honesty" about what? The self is always a fiction. What on earth does
it have to be "honest" about as such? You either accept or reject other selves
as they are presented to you, there is no "reality" behind the curtain.
Honesty about being orange rather than blue.
And yes, the "self" is a process. Absolutely.
Praise the trees!!!!
[Marsha]
What precisely is your definition of avatar???
[Arlo]
The fictions we create as we engage in social worlds.
Hahahaha! A punchline! Thanks!
.
.
Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars.........
.
.
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