[Marsha] You've never seen me walk. What can you say about how I walk? [Arlo] I'm basing this on what I see here. What else could I base it on? You are saying on one hand you believe selves are fictions, then on the other you are saying "selves" should be "honest" about things. You can't have it both ways. Either the "self" is a fiction, and you accept it as such, or their are "real things" about it.
[Marsha] Okay, but I think I should leave your honesty open for further verification. [Arlo] Anytime you can point out where I've been dishonest, please feel free to do so. [Marsha] If I cannot see you because were using email, and you tell me you're blue, but you're really orange, you are being dishonest. [Arlo] What if I believe I am orange, but trapped in a blue body? Which is more important? Honesty to how one feels? Or honesty to some physiological form? Why is one even related to the other? [Marsha] But maybe I am planning on buying you a pretty dress to match your color, so it does matter. [Arlo] In this context, physiological form does have value. Until then, whatever color I am is whatever color you accept me to be. But whatever color dress you end up buying my physiological form has no bearing, or should have no bearing, on the nature of the identity you interact with here. This is why I said to you, the "Marsha" that I know and has value to me and that I accept as a "woman" will continue to exist as such to me even if I found out your physiological form had male parts. [Marsha] This is a culture/language issue and you know it. [Arlo] Absolutely. From day one I've said that these things we are talking about, continuity across time and continuity across contexts, are cultural-social patterns of value. They have real meaning for us socially, and so we mostly willingly adopt them (I keep the same name) and sometimes enforce them with electro-shock (as what happened to the "old Bob"). [Marsha] Both are structured for a self that is independent with a body and mind, and a gender association. [Arlo] I disagree. I think our cultural contexts are structured for a self that is wholly dependent on "body" and a singular gender association. "One body, one mind, one soul" as it were. [Marsha] I admit I'm having trouble trying to explain myself. But I think you are sounding very strange yourself. You think all this talk about avatars, faces, fictions corporeal hosts and sex-change operations is crystal clear? It is not clear to me. [Arlo] I've never claimed I present my thoughts clearly. If I did, I'd never have to write a second post. [Marsha] Honesty about being orange rather than blue. [Arlo] Both are fictions. To base one's "realness" on physiology is a mistake. The color I am is the color I present and you accept. There is no other reality behind that. The pigment of my skin has nothing whatsoever to do with the color of my self. You either accept "Arlo" as orange or you do not. But if he says he is, and you point the blue pigment of his skin as evidence of dishonesty, you are tying identity to body, a mistake in my opinion. "Marsha" is a woman to me. And will be despite anything I could learn about her physical form. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
