[Marsha] There is no each!!! 'Each' is your fantasy, and I don't share it.
[Arlo] They are fictions. You talk a talk you seem incapable of walking. None are any more my fantasy than they are yours. You want to say you believe selves are fictional, but you keep going on about "honesty". If selves are fictions, Marsha, what is it that they should be "honest" about? [Marsha] You're just trying to justify your behavior, and that is one of deception. Where the rules are known only to you. [Arlo] I've never once deceived anyone. What "rules" are known only to me? What "behavior". [Marsha] Meanwhile I would want honesty to part of the social transaction. Are you stating that honesty means nothing to you? [Arlo] If selves are fictions, what is it that they should be "honest" about? You accept or reject any fiction based on its value to you. There is no "honesty" beyond that. Or, again, is this just a way of being able to say "selves are fiction" but clinging to the notion of a "real self one should be honest about"? Let me ask this, again. Here is "SA". His maleness or femaleness in this forum is a fiction s/he offers and you accept. It is no more and no less honest than whether or not s/he is known as "Nick" or "Heather" in other contexts. And, "Arlo" is a fiction. "SA" is a fiction. They are separate fictions here. What difference does it make whether or not they share a body? [Marsha] Why are you hung up on this sexual gender thing? As far as I know SA is a man. 'What if he isn't?' isn't a game I'm interested in playing. [Arlo] You said you'd feel deceived to find out "SA" exists in the body of a biological female. That if "he" didn't reveal that truth to you upfront, he'd be being deceptive. And yes, I know, its always convenient to want to say things but a pain in the ass to deal with questions that problematize those things. I ask these questions because everything you've been saying doesn't jive with what you say you believe. Everything you've written points to your believing that there is "a real self" with real characteristics that transcend time and context, things which the self "should be honest about". What I've been saying all along, that the "Arlo" that is "real" is the "Arlo" that is right here right now, and there is no realness behind that. You either accept "Arlo" or you "reject" him. He either has value to you or he does not. But his existence is "here". The shape of his corporeal host, or the other selves that inhabit his gray matter are inconsequential. [Marsha] I'm going to say when you open your mouth you speak the truth as best you can. Seems that concept is difficult for you. Why? [Arlo] The difficulty seems to be your trying to have selves as fictions but also have "truths" about them. I accept the fictional "SA" here without the need for some "truth" you seem to need. As I've said all along, the only "truth" I care about is the "reality" of the "SA" here. Your harping about "honesty" points to a self that is not fictional, but "real". All fine and good, but stop pretending you think selves are fictional. [Marsha] No independent self, and no fictitious selves. Think process. Part of the process of being a self should include honesty. [Arlo] Again, "honesty" about what? The self is always a fiction. What on earth does it have to be "honest" about as such? You either accept or reject other selves as they are presented to you, there is no "reality" behind the curtain. And yes, the "self" is a process. Absolutely. [Marsha] What precisely is your definition of avatar??? [Arlo] The fictions we create as we engage in social worlds. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
