Hi Ham
20 Sep. you wrote:
> Terminology does affect one's understanding of a concept. One of the
> problems here is that you are using "intellect" to represent what I
> call "experience". To me intellection is the process of organizing
> sensory data into a structured whole - experiential existence....snip
You bet. Pirsig's statement that the level arrangement isn't new
makes the impression that the first 3 correspond to the scientific
disciplines. The two lower may pass, but the social level has little to do
with "sociology" and 4th. even less with the usual usage of the term
"intellect", namely thinking in general.
Your "... intellection is the process of organizing sensory data ...etc."
sounds like a more complicated variety of "thinking" and as long as
this definition reigns the MOQ is not understood. Its 4th. level is crucial
and is the S/O distinction and a host of subsidiaries (mind/matter,
soul/body, mental/corporeal, abstract/concrete, culture/nature,
thoughts/what thoughts are about, symbols/what they symbolize ...and
more I don't recall at the moment.
> ... Thus, I would say, "Experience is [how we distinguish,
> intellectualize] a reality out there from a mind in here." I won't
> quarrel with your assertion that Essence "belongs to the idealist camp"
> if you'll agree that Pirsig's Quality also falls into this camp.
The idealist/materialist distinction is a mind/matter variant so this
affirms that you are firmly lodged in intellect's subjective camp.
However you are acquitted, worse are the alleged moqists who are
likewise lodged but don't know it. Worst are some utterances by Pirsig
f.ex. the one about the MOQ as an intellectual pattern (ignores that the
4th. level is a MOQ "pattern") and about Quality as the "essence" with
the MOQ some theory about it (an even subtler S/O)
> I don't understand what you mean by "intellect's premises". Are they
> mental constructs of cognizant awareness or patterns of an
> extracorporeal quality?......
Intellect's premises is the conviction that existence is split along the
subject/object "fault" ...or the mental/corporeal one, or any of the
subsidiaries.
> .... Why aren't "intelligence's logical gates" intellect itself?
The difference between intelligence and intellect is crucial. As said
animals show different degrees of intelligence, but none (of them) has
entered the intellectual level (society is the necessary step). When my
proverbial crow found ways to get food it used intelligence (I don't
remember the name of the "logical gates", there are 3 and one is
something like "IF SO, THEN". Maybe our computer wizards know?
> You seem to be treating intellect as a property or function of the
> objective universe rather than the subjective individual. This is a
> Pirsigianism that is incomprehensible to me
The subjective/objective split (and its offshoots) has no relevance
outside the 4th. level, the MOQ only recognizes the dynamic/static
split. I wish this was "Pirsigianism" but he is notoriously ambiguous. I
know the alleged moqist strongly dislikes the SOL interpretation, but
someone must create order out of the master's wildly divergent
statements.
> By "a Q-development" do you mean that Quality acts as an external
> force to infuse or empower the individual with intellect?
A "Q-development" is a static level and its sub-sets. No, Quality does
not act as an external force, nor as an internal, internal/external is
another intellectual offshoot. You may say that it leaves little and the
MOQ is immensely general, the worst fallacy is Magnus' who thinks it
is some better science. It's force is the immense explanatory power
the level arrangement offers.
> If so, to what extent does this Q factor create the individuals'
> thoughts, ideas, feelings, and decisions? And if the individual is
> externally manipulated in this manner, how can he be a free creature?
> That's a fundamental problem for me, Bo.
I would have loved to elaborate, but this is too long already. So in
another instalment. Thanks for your interest Ham.
Bo
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