woods previously said:
Curious. Do you really think Obama is going to change this fascist slide? His
interests are easy to see, too. He voted for the bailout. He's for gun control.
This is way over Obama's head, and he's going to have a difficult time changing
anything in Washington even if Obama still has a glimmering morsel of morality
left in him.
dmb says:
I don't see any reason to think Obama has been drained of morality. And the
idea that he's in over his head is even more bizarre. He's brilliant, in fact.
He was the nation's top law student, editor of Harvard's law review, worked for
years as a constitutional law professor and I'd be shocked if his I.Q. was less
than 130. And if you're saying that voting for the bailout or gun control is a
fascist thing to do, I'd have to conclude that you don't really understand what
fascism is.
woods:
The bailout was money for banking interests. Obama will continue to
support
and allow Federal Reserve banking policies to be tied to the gov't no doubt.
Did you
see the list of Obama's voting record. He matches Bush on Patriot Act,
Unwarranted Wire Tapping, expanding the military (growing the empire still,
which is in over 100 countries and he wants more), forcing women to register
to be drafted into the military, etc... check the list on another post or find
it in
wikipedia were I did.
dmb:
Think about what Pirsig says about fascism, that it is the glorification of
social
values and social authority, especially at the expense of intellectual values.
Then think about the complaints from Arlo and me. The McCain supporters are
saying that "liberals hate real americans", that the liberals in congress ought
to
be investigated for their anti-American activities, that these are the same
types
who put Pirsig on their shit list, that their opponents are branded as
anti-American
traitors, that guys like Hannity and Limbaugh have achieved new levels of fear,
anger and venom and that the Republican "base" is really showing its true
colors
by calling Obama a terrorist, an arab, a secret Islamist and calling for his
death.
All this fear of other religions, flag waving, war making, tough guy foreign
policy
and xenophobic fear mongering is essentially the worship of social values and
social authority. This goes hand in hand with the worship of the so-called free
market, over the top religiosity and excessive patriotism. This is what fascism
looks like from the inside. It's a kind of narcissism that wants to destroy
everything
that doesn't look and feel and act just like me and mine; my country, my
religion,
my values, my race, my language and my way of life. Difference of just about
any kind is seen as some kind of evil, some kind of rot. And it's no accident
that
the bill of rights, the separation of powers and democracy in general has taken
a
huge hit over the last eight years.
woods:
Why are you saying this to me? Your point? dmb you seem to forget or
don't
follow my posts. I find McCain's rhetoric, especially Palin's, to be more
intimidating
than Obama's. What I find it hard to believe is that Obama will change much of
anything.
I'm not for McCain either. I'm a no vote or a write in. Ron Paul's
recommending
the Constitutional Party, but I don't think I can vote for them in this state
or even
write them in. I checked on it. So a no-vote for me. I'm done with these
two parties that sound the same anymore. Did you hear Biden? An
"international crisis"
will test Obama "six months" into his administration. Biden said mark his
words. Biden
also said that they will not appear to be "right", but he asked the crowd at
the rally to
"trust them". Fear-mongering... Why won't they, Obama and Biden, appear to be
right?
What are they planning? Fear-tactics?
dmb:
And you know what fuels all the hate heaped on ACORN? They help black people
register.
So, so much of what the Republicans say is cryptic racism. English only,
immigration issues,
the war in Iraq, family values talk, defense of marriage talk and lots of other
things would
more or less fall flat if it weren't for the various forms of prejudice. Did
you notice what
McCain said when he took the microphone away from one of his supports who'd
just said
Obama was an Arab. He said, no ma'am, he a decent family man. As if being
Arabic means
you couldn't possibly be a decent person! And he's a Christian, but so what if
he wasn't?
This is not rational stuff, woody.
woods:
Yeah, your point again? Your stuck in a left-right, two-party paradigm,
sounds SOM. By
the way, I have no idea what McCain meant when he said that to this lady. At
first I personally
thought he was trying to counter the ladies insinuation that because Obama is
arab then he's
a bad mean, dangerous person, so, McCain was saying no Obama is not this
dangerous mean
person, but a decent family man. Then I heard about ca. 10 interpretations of
what the exchange
meant on TV and radio, and yours was one interpretation from a Democrat.
dmb:
I'm not saying that Democrats or liberals are purely intellectual. Personally,
in fact, I'm registered
as non-affiliated and since 1980 I've voted democratic only about half the
time. But I certainly
will this time and I won't even have to hold my nose, as I always have before.
I have never ever
voted for a Republican and probably never will. In my opinion, anyone who votes
Republican
this year is either immoral or insane and probably both.
woods:
Yeah, but I don't think Obama will change anything. If he does, then good.
His character needs
to be a lot stronger and moral than what we may only begin to understand.
Interest groups, military
industrial complex, the bankers, international situations, etc... will be
pushing their agendas and
I find it will be difficult for any president to change the world stage. Now
if Obama said he's going
to pull troops out of all the countries in the world, focus on our borders, and
try to focus more
on reinstating the constitution, then maybe we would see the drastic change
that is needed. But Obama
is interested in changing little stuff here and there. Yeah he wants the
troops out of Iraq. Good. That's
a good first step, but what about the other 130 or so countries around the
world? Is he all for this
"New World Order Banking Structure" that Prime Minister Brown, French
President, and Italian Prime
Minister are for, and these summit meetings are trying to establish? If so,
what does that mean for
the U.S.? There's a whole other bigger event going on in this World Financial
Restructuring that Obama
hasn't even touched yet. There are events going on that Obama will get caught
up in bigger problems
and bigger events that I hope he can do some of little baby steps of change
that he talks about. We'll
see.
dmb:
Obama couldn't clean this mess up even if he held office for 20 years. Nobody
could simply because
the damage is too extensive. But if we move in the Bush/Cheney direction any
further, we're sunk.
woods:
Exactly. But I really wonder if Obama will change much of the Bush/Cheney
direction. He's voted with
them on some of the major issues I spoke of above. Now Bush made a lot of his
own decisions without
Congressional approval, such as allowing the Military to help law enforcement
during Katrina and the RNC
the two I know about. That's unconstitutional and the ACLU (not very highly
thought of I know) is looking
into this at the moment for these military brigades are in the U.S. for the
first time ever focusing on
civil unrest and crowd control trainings under the command of Northcom. Why?
and how lawful is this? ACLU
is trying to get the information but the President and Congress will not talk
about it. Bush has increased
the shadow gov't by not talking with Congress about certain Acts Bush has
signed off himself and Congress
still demands to know about but Bush will not say, such as the Bush has new
martial law powers if any
crisis would occur, economic, military, natural disaster, etc... and Bush can
take over the state's national guard
(which are in usual times commanded by the Governors) and the President can
take over private or gov't institutions
from the federal, state, local, and tribal levels. I can't remember the bill
off-hand, but you can find it.
dmb:
It might be too late already. And so the democrats represent the only
reasonable way to put the breaks
on this trend.
woods:
Yeah. In a two party system when one party has been in administration and it
did not go well, then
you only have one choice.
dmb:
There is no other legal way to stop it. I realize that way too many people
throw the word "fascism"
around for stupid reasons. But I was a history major and did my undergrad
thesis on Germany's fascism.
It wasn't a very good paper but I've been thinking and reading about it ever
since and I'm telling you that
this is what it looks like. People who were there and lived through it will
tell you the same thing.
Naomi Wolf is far more educated than me. So check this out this talk she gave
at the University of
Washington about a year ago...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjALf12PAWc
woods:
Yeah, I've read some of Naomi's works online. I actually have this
link bookmarked, but haven't been able to watch it yet. I watched the trailer
to the movie called "The End of America". Looks interesting. I've heard her
on the radio. Did you know somebody (this might sound way out there)
approached her and told her that there are FEMA camps set up with shackles
and such? The source was afraid to allow her to have his/her name, but this
person seemed "sincere" in Naomi's words. Now she didn't find it credible
for she's a trained mainstream investigative reporter, but she says this is
the kind of stuff people are approaching her about and found this to be very
disturbing. When Naomi goes on TV or talks about the military brigade in
Georgia under Northcom's command that Northcom posted about being here
because the brigade would help in civil unrest and crowd control (how they
could now would be unconstitutional. The military can not help in law
enforcement,
though Northcom admits they were at Katrina and RNC for law enforcement
support),
she can't get any traction. Nobody wants to talk about it and investigate it.
She
says people in the media look at her as if she's "viral" (her word). Yet, we
all
know their here, but nobody finds it of interest for some reason to discuss it.
Who knows if it's true or not about these FEMA camps where boxed cars are
located on train tracks pulled up to big buildings? Naomi couldn't get a
credible
source and she didn't try to find these so called FEMA camps. She admits it's
not
a credible source either. But I've heard about them from other sources, but I
don't
want to comment on them for I really don't know where this rumor is coming from.
Naomi has also pointed out that a woman in Vermont is running for
state attorneys office and the platform of this person is once in office
she is going to go after Bush for criminal charges.
woods
P.S. I admit the Lucifer tie in opposition to zeitgeist was out there. I just
find the whole zeitgeist stuff to be out there too. That was my point, but
hey,
it's over. I've posted much on this cite, and I guess I reacted the way I did
for how you came across without engaging and trying to figure out where
I was coming from without your hot-headed temperament and words due to
one post out of the probably hundreds I've made here.
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