---------------------------------------- > Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 16:16:40 -0400 > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: [MD] differences between MoQ and SOM > > > [Ham] > But do you now agree that this is animism? >
Yes, I must say that I do. The idea that atoms literally exercise intellectual choice is, to me, absurd. >> >> Animism is sometimes necessary for people to be able to >> understand and talk about nature.... >> >> Whether you say that the apple likes to fall or that it is pulled >> toward the ground by the force of gravity (because there's no >> implication of choice involved in being pulled); we can still >> agree on what is happening. > > That we often speak in metaphors is true, but philosophy is not about > language but about reality. So long as we regard poets as philosophers, we > shall never learn the truth about reality. Philosophical inquiry is one way to talk about and understand nature; poetic metaphors are another, and I believe the two overlap in some places. Nor I would not allow the argument to stand that one provides a more accurate picture of reality than another. Philosophers may or may not be trying to talk about language (and I apologize for focusing so much on it), but how we conceptualize the world is based upon the language we use. Language is very important! > What you seem to be aiming at is a teleology for the behavior of inanimate > objects and events. That's commendable, but it's a different concept than > claiming that rocks and trees "value" their natural goals and ends. There > is a certain "determinism" to the universe in that it's self-sustaining and > directed toward the production of viable life forms. That characteristic is > perceived by MAN as Value. But saying that objects "prefer" or "favor" what > they are by nature predetermined to do impugns awareness to them, which is > fantasy. Ah. So the difference I mentioned between an apple "liking" to fall and an apple being pulled, namely that the former implies a measure of choice on the part of the apple... wasn't just to be brushed aside? There is an attempt at teleology in saying that the apple likes to fall; I didn't see that before, and certainly wasn't consciously trying to make it sound that way. I think that the problem is that forces like gravity are impersonal and purposeless, but calling it a matter of preference doesn't really change that. The language trick only confuses with the implication that an apple is aware in the same way a human or animal is. I like: >There is a certain "determinism" to the universe in that it's self-sustaining >and > directed toward the production of viable life forms. Which can then be interpreted by human as its purpose? Is that what you were saying? That human sees patterns and calls them Destiny? If so, I can agree. It does not bother me the idea that to exist something must be perceived as existing that way. But where does the idea of purpose or destiny come from? I am a follower of David Hume in that I believe that all thoughts have some grounding, however twisted, in experiential reality. I would continue but my questions would be regarding your personal philosophy, Ham, and as such have nothing to do with MoQ or SOM, and therefore would not belong in the MD. I may check out your website, I may not. Everyone else, please forgive me for taking this so far off-topic. But the question(s) I'm trying to answer did incidentally arise from the quote from Lila. If atoms aren't conscious, how are we? And if we are conscious, why aren't atoms? Is saying that a "pattern of atoms" is conscious, but neither we nor the atoms are... is that really saying anything useful? Truely, Zenith > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ _________________________________________________________________ You live life beyond your PC. So now Windows goes beyond your PC. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/115298556/direct/01/ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
