---------------------------------------- > Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 16:11:10 -0400 > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: [MD] differences between MoQ and SOM > > [Craig's explanation]: >> Pirsig's position is that chemistry professors ARE NOT >> composed exclusively of atoms. Atoms are not alive, >> don't have tenure & don't know chemistry. >> The MoQ levels address this issue. > > [Ham] Of course Craig is right. Not only are atoms not alive, they are not > aware. > Therefore they have no knowledge, no values, and no morality. > Unfortunately, however, he (Pirsig) makes > several assertions in this paragraph that are unfounded and confusing to > anyone unfamiliar with his peculiar view of cosmic morality. > > For example: > > - "The 'Laws of Nature' are moral laws." (Free Will?)
---------------------- I would not consider this to be about free will. The Laws of Nature, such that govern the movement of atoms, are moral laws in the sense that they involve value-sensibility that, as Ham points out, Pirsig allows even to objective phenomena like atoms. I think Pirsig is reiterating the idea that Quality can be sensed even by inorganic objects. The laws of entropy, of gravity, of thermodynamics are best described by saying that heat "likes" to dissipate or that objects "like" to exert forces on one another. --------------------- > - "Chemistry professors smoke pipes and go to movies because irresistible > cause-and-effect forces of the cosmos force them to do so." (Determinism?) ---------------------- I imagine its a standard definition of determinism ---------------------- > - "We can just as easily deduce the morality of atoms from the observation > that chemistry professors are, in general, moral." (Then comes the > syllogism to "prove" it.) > > With all due respect to the author, this is nonsense. First of all, Pirsig > himself as much as tells us that experience creates our reality, which > suggests that any Free Will or Determinism perceived in existence is an > attribution by the cognizant subject. What must occur before the experience > of process and causes is individuated awareness and its sense of Value. > Pirsig calls this sensibility "pre-intellectual experience", but he does not > posit it as proprietary to the subject. In fact, he gives as much > value-sensibility to atoms and other objective phenomena as he gives to the > individual who observes them. If man is not a free agent, where is the Free > Will? Whose will is it that creates the universe? Obviously, Pirsig wants > to be on the side of the objectivists who claim that everything is the > result of cause-and-effect determinism. > > [Platt]: >> The premise is accepted by many physicists who believe all is >> simply different forms of energy. That's at the root of Pirsig's >> criticism of SOM. How does "everything is different forms of >> energy" explain quality? In fact, how does it explain "different >> forms?" (That's when "oops" comes in.) As for configuring >> atoms of a person, I'm sure you're familiar with, "Beam me up, >> Scotty." Fiction now, but who knows? > > [Ham] Apart from the "oops" factor and the fact that the MoQ is a > metaphorical > representation of physical existence, do you really believe that a human > being is no more than a particular arrangement of atoms or energy patterns? -------------- Someone once said that the most amazing thing about the universe is that it is at all intelligible. The "oops" factor, emergent properties, patterns, Quality... could they be the same? As for a person being "nothing more" than an arrangement of atoms or energy patterns, well, why not? Isn't a sculpture of an elephant "nothing more" than an arrangement of stone or welded metal or whatever? But no, its also art! A person is also character, spirit, soul! The key word is "arrangement." Therein lies the magic. As Craig pointed out, "the MoQ LEVELS address this issue." On the inorganic level, all we are is stardust. Only on a higher level do things like personality and social status come into play. Sorry, that's what I think! > Do your worst, > Zenith > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ _________________________________________________________________ You live life beyond your PC. So now Windows goes beyond your PC. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/115298556/direct/01/ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
