Platt: Even now Europeans stand idly by while Muslims, rejecting Western values and refusing to assimilate, occupy their countries. But, what the hell? If you're a multi-culturist, it makes no difference whose regime you live under. All are equally moral.
Andre: Platt, you are pointing to a huge problem which is again caused if feel by SOM inspired policies and opportunism (not yours but the problem!!). I cannot speak for Europe but was around in Holland when it was taking place. I can only assume that, in many other European countries similar developments took place. The early 60's and all through the 70's saw a big rise in unskilled and semi-skilled occupations which the Dutch did not want to fill. My hunch is that this was due to educational standards/ achievements. (Why should I, with my High School/ College diploma empty garbage bins all day?). Immigration laws were relaxed and people from other countries encouraged to come. Of course these did come, in their thousands from countries where economic conditions were poor (your typical Muslim states...Morroco, Turkey etc). The problem started there and then: they were seen as economic units, who would come here to do our "dirty" work ( work we didn't want to do), stay on for a few years and then return to their country of origin and live there like princes (with their hard earned savings). I deliberately say princes because they were mainly men who responded, often leaving their families behind. Now, I could go on and on about this but will not. Platt you are probably recognising the development we talked about earlier: the unintended consequences. These human beings were 'seen' as economic units and none of the policies considered them otherwise. But of course they brought their culture and their religion with them as well. On top of this, language programs (to assist a possible integration process) were non-existent. Their living- and working conditions and, not forgetting their payslips, were of very low quality indeed. But they persevered, settled in...supported eachother within their own, newly created communities..survived prejudices in the shape of verbal- and at times physical abuse,got their families etc, etc and , to all shock horror of the intellectuals, decided to stay! They liked it here. The disastrous effect of these policies showed of course many years later after these communities had turned into virtual ghettos,isolated , after they had gained concessions to express their faith (building mosques), their first generation (on Dutch soil ) born children went to school, were growing up...confused...caught between cultures... . Platt, to put it crudely: they were never made to feel welcome. They were expected to do a job and then piss off again. It is a huge problem and I think it is unfair to say that 'Europeans stand idly by..." . The intellectual level is the victim of its own SOM thinking (can I put it in this way?). It has created a very difficult situation within the social level. It is now trying to remedy the situation through appealing to (ethnic) community leaders to make clear ( through dialogue and education programs) to their respective communities that in Holland there exist intellectual rights of free speech...etc etc. In other words the intellectual patterns are saying clean up your act or else... . It will meet expressions of dissent/ violence, where they transgress these values, with appropriate police- and legal force. But your fanatics/ fundamentalists remain. I would say that 99.9% of people from differing ethnic backgrounds are fairly well, to very well integrated.And most are peace abiding citizens who value and respect and live by (Dutch) Int. PoV's. The recent appointment of a man with a Moroccan background (he came to Holland when he was 14 years old!!) to become Lord Mayor of the city of Rotterdam (not the least city in Holland!) indicates this. But the process is slow. The process of dialogue and education is slow. Often it is the individual or the very few that create problems for the many. But, in MoQ terms these "incidents", these blatant violations of the right of free speech for example etc have shown the defects in the policies put in place. What should an intellectually guided society do? Shoot them? Throw them out (as 3 blatantly racist politicians argue and shout)? The problem Platt is that we also live in a multi-cultural world whether we like this or not. I agree with Pirsig about dominance of social over biological, and intellectual over social. But does that ipso facto mean that the US or any other country in the world should cajole, threaten, invade, manipulate, coerce, whatever, any other country that does not have these values in this order? (yet?) I can go on and on about China. I have argued before that this is not a socialist country. It is a totalitarian regime. People are powerless. I do know that the young are unhappy. One 15-year old (from Chengdu) has written a book which the Guardian says is a bestseller here. It is called "Give me back the Dream"., I've been told that dissent and complaints and protests are hotly argued about on the Internet here. Something is happening but for now..underground. We know the results of 'above ground' protests. These all take time. Must stop Platt. Hope I have been making some sense. Andre, and... please pick holes in my thinking/ reasoning. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
