> Chris:
> Indeed I do. Real socialism for me means real democracy. Real socialism to
> me means a society where people have the time and the means to fully
> exercise a intellectually guided democracy. I that isn't so, then it isn't a
> socialist society in my book.
> woods previously:
> You have made the political intellectual pattern to mean only socialism.
> No
> wonder you'll argue with others about this and others will argue with you.
> Each
> of you have different definitions of what socialism is.
Chris:
I have not made it to mean socialism. But by my definition of socialism, I have
yet to hear a better program for intellectual level superiority. However, it is
problematic,
because to a lot of people, when I say I am a socialist, they will assign me a
whole bunch of opinions that I don't hold. I believe in democracy, free speech,
justice
and all that stuff. I don't believe in the necessity of a bloody revolution, I
don't
believe in oppression of differing opinions or any of that Stalinist stuff.
Perhaps the word socialism is too infected, perhaps I should invent a new one.
woods:
Maybe if you could make what you mean come out more significantly, so,
I can understand what you mean. You've defined a gov't so far, that could
be represented by differing gov't's, and thus, why the need for socialism?
Chris:
What would be a good word for wanting to build a extensive welfare state with
"radical" democracy? Because that is really what I am all about, I want to make
democracy work by making it possible for people to understand what it is.
To give them the time and the means to understand it. That's what a welfare
state is Good for. So that people can feel safe and be able to develop
themselves
in whatever way they want. That way we can work towards a society where
people needn't be so bound by social values, because they are liberated by
being born into a society where realizing your potential and going after
Quality
is possible without the constant fear of failing and ending up on the streets
or
something like that.
woods:
There is a lot in this. If I have the intellectual patterns to continue,
then I
wouldn't mind parsing this. I understand the fear aspect, but I wonder if
it is really about not having a safety net and this holds people back? Are
you suggesting this? Also, having people understand democracy would
require value in the democracy and understanding that it is intellectual and
thus, requires education. This can, if valued highly enough, come from parents
and others in society, but the value and understanding that a democracy
is intellectual and doesn't run by itself without education stirring the ideas
and understandings is lacking. One hazard I perceive with "welfare state" is
moral hazard. It happens in banking all the time, and if people know
they will not be penalized in some way if their pursuit didn't succeed, then
people may actually risk even more - for there's that safety net to fall back
on. What
do you think? There could be degree's to this "welfare state" program, and
maybe
some already exist. I don't know.
Chris:
You know, to make a shift from social values to intellectual ones as the most
central,
And make it easier to explore ANY form of Quality. That I believe is best done
by building
a society where, by providing the basic needs for everyone, the (social level
motivated)
hysteria which is the accumulation of wealth hasn't got such a strong grip on
people.
woods:
The accumulation of wealth does have a strong grip on people. It dominates
society so
much that it actually rids self-reliance - figure that one out. It sounds
ironic doesn't it, but
along with hunting and gathering squeezed out, what if a community of people
could
care for themselves (such as the Lakota example I provided and the FBI comes in
and makes them depend on the U.S. gov't), energy self-reliance, the fair tax I
brought up,
small family farms squeezed out by corporate farms, etc...
Chris:
What would you call it?
woods:
I don't know. I don't know if we've yet defined this "socialism" your talking
about enough.
woods
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