Hi Joe, Andre, Ham, Bo, All: I've changed the subject because this discussion deserves its own thread.
Joe wrote: IMO A proper analogy to DQ/SQ is Conscious/Mechanical. All our Mechanical behavior is characterized as "being in a trance". It is not too far a stretch for the imagination to reproduce the behavior through hypnotism. Since DQ/Conscious is undefined, it is hard to know how it is reproduced by "being in a trance" except as a analogous to Mechanical which would leave the conscious feelings out. Andre wrote: > Bandler and Grinder put the 'being in trance' in the generalised context > of > 'being in trance' by one's culture...having one's cultural glasses on/ > an > alternative reality. Much as Pirsig means that to be born and growing up > in > a culture is to be 'hypnotised' into accepting a view of reality from > the > perspective of that culture that that reality is the one and only true > reality. > The experience of 'culture shock' comes to mind (which I have > experienced) > when one's culturally informed notions of reality and what should be > real > and acceptable and logically consistent etc etc are completely overthrown > by > the 'confrontation' with another reality...where all these preconceived > notions are rendered meaningless. > > You end up in a state of shock: everything you have accepted as normal > and > real and predictable etc etc is gone. Of course the biggest problem is > that > the other reality is also very consistent and coherent and normal and > makes > sense (after a while) so you begin to wonder about the solidity of your > own > ideas of reality, consistency, logic etc etc. > > I think it lacks a scientific explanation because one is confronted with > one's values (how things are supposed/ ought/ to be) and this is > something > science does not fully appreciate. Pirsig wrote: "The culture in which we live hands us a set of intellectual glasses to interpret experience with, and the concept of the primacy of subjects and objects is built right into these glasses. If someone sees things through a somewhat different set of glasses or, God help him, takes his glasses off, the natural tendency of those who still have their glasses on is to regard his statements as somewhat weird, if not actually crazy." (Lila, 8) Ham quoted the Stanford Encyclopedia, inadvertently describing the glasses worn by most of our peers: "In order to separate the object from the subject itself, the experiential subject must be able to distinguish between the form and the content of his or her experiences. This is possible only if the subject uses causal and spatial-temporal concepts for describing the sensorial content, placing phenomena in causal connection in space and time, since it is the causal space-time description of our perceptions that constitutes the criterion of reality for them. Bohr therefore believed that what gives us the possibility of talking about an object and an objectively existing reality is the application of those necessary concepts, and that the physical equivalents of 'space,' 'time,' 'causation,' and 'continuity' were the concepts 'position,' 'time,' 'momentum,' and 'energy,' which he referred to as the classical concepts." Finally, a quote from Whitehead, a philosopher Pirsig admires: "The progress of science has now reached a turning point. The old stable foundations of physics have broken up . . . .The old foundations of scientific thought are becoming unintelligible. Time, space, matter, material, either, electricity, mechanism, organism, configuration, structure, pattern, function, all require reinterpretation." Rigid "glasses," foundations, concepts and preconceived notions that have existed for decades and currently exist for many in a trance-like state are now, for a few, undergoing "proper analogies" (Joe), shocks" (Andre), breaks (Whitehead) and a metaphysical revolution (Pirsig). We happy few are trying to come out of our trances. That's what makes this site -- thanks to Horse the moderator and all contributors -- a Quality place to be. Regards, Platt P.S. I would be remiss not to mention Bo who perhaps more than anyone since the beginning of moq-discuss has challenged the SOM trance state. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
