Oh Bo! 2009/2/20 <[email protected]>
> Hi Kieffer > > > But that animals "dont emote"! i refer you to Darwin's 'The Expression > > of Emotions in Man and Animals' > > Darwin did not bring Pirsig's books along on the "Beagle" ;-) so he > was a somist are you really suggesting that because Pirsig hadnt yet dreamt up his 'Quality' ideas that Darwin was a 'somist', thats utter baloney! A man who had arguably the single greatest idea in the history of science was actually narrow minded and only able to see the world in terms of symbol manipulation. Something is very ridiculous here! As you may know Darwin wasnt the first to think or talk about evolution - only the first to recognise it clearly and present it to the world; similarly Pirsig, i dare say, wasnt the first to recognise the singular importance of 'Quality', only the first to crystallise and publish that idea. To my mind Darwin, in describing how evolution worked, was in fact describing something very much akin to 'Quality'. and in SOM (or at the 4th level) there are only the > matter and mind realms, SOM is an activity of mind; rocks and plants for instance cant do it. As you said to Ham recently 'No one living in an ordered universe can avoid interpreting reality (i.e. "having a metaphysics")'; and that interpretation, our mode of perception, is via subjects and objects - but can that really be considered a metaphysics - i dont think so; metaphysics is a peculiar thing that philosophers do (armchair of otherwise), and so, in my book, only an intellectual activity - not the whole of intellect as you propose. > and animals (the higher) are matter only so complex that they begin to displayed mind-like attributes like > emotions. What a contrived view! And yet you will agree there is no matter really; matter is only polarised quality with a capital Q. I will give you the benefit of the doubt and say that you were simply being linguistically expedient. But more importantly: that animals begin to display mind like attributes like emotions - you seem to relegate animals to something altogether inferior to humans, as if we have something divine that they do not. I read recently that people born blind who have never seen the emotional facial expressions of others will still, automatically, exhibit those same expressions themselves when experiencing the corresponding emotion. I watched a period drama on TV last night and noticed, no doubt through association with your recent ideas, that the expressions the actors were using were 20th century and it occurred to me that 15th century folk would never emote in that way. Emotions are part of communication and are widespread in other animals including humans - you recognise when a dog is angry dont you Bo? Now, enter the MOQ which divide isn't mind/matter but DQ/SQ > (and the former M/M is intellect's value) so when I say (to David > Swift) that animals seeming emotions aren't the real thing, it's not > a somist speaking who wants animals to be low on the > "mind/matter" scale, but a moqist who wants them to be at the > correct level, namely the biological, not the social which came to > pass with humanity and where emotions are its "expression" > (according to my list). > MoQ is for people - and when Pirsig puts social and intellectual into the mind category it is because human mind is what we have - we dont know how a dog or cat thinks - but they do too think. > > > i guess you dont have any pets! > > That's correct, but I have seen how dogs beg and cats purr when > they want something and growl and hiss if they want to scare > someone away. But - as said - these are "social" signs in a > "society in biology's service" sense. They neither hate nor love. More baloney! You should become a Christian. Hate and Love - the higher emotions - haha! What is love Bo, if it is not caring? Does a bitch dog care for its puppies, does a woman care for her baby? These fine emotions of hate and love are only expressions of social and, more deeply rooted, biological imperatives. If a woman loves her baby then a sparrow feeds its young through love also. Bo, I still remember your fine paintings! -KO Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
