[MP] My basic take on life in general: if you are going to kill it, you better have a *damn good* reason.
[Krimel] So if a roach enters my living room, I should escort it outside? If a mosquito buzzes near my ear I should respect its air space and move to a different location? How "good" is "damn good". The Jains wear gauze masks to avoid the chance inhalation of small bugs. Even respect for life becomes absurd at some point. [Steve] It is impossible for me to consider a zygote to be a person, and the MOQ can't see it that way either since a zygote cannot participate in social patterns. [Krimel] Exactly, a fertilized egg is purely a biological pattern. In fact it may be a biological pattern that threatens a host of social and/or intellectual patterns. Teen mothers are at a severe disadvantage socially and intellectually. Should actualized teens be forces to sacrifice their own social and intellectual potential for the sake of some biological potential implanted, by chance or accident or force, within them? Dan: Our medical advances are a wonder to behold. However, the screening processes are far from infallible. According to your logic, Ham, when a baby like Fred is born, we should immediately end it's "ill-begotten" life. History is full of "ill-begotten creatures" who have added an immense value to our world. Don't you know that? I have to say, you're a cold man, Mr. Priday. [Krimel] I feel the need to bathe every time I agree with Ham on something, but fresh from the shower I must say, no one is talking about infanticide here. Your example of Fred is a classic case of seeing the issue from the Top Down. Fred would not be here if this or that had been otherwise. The fact is none of us would be here if this or that had gone otherwise. The odds against the chance combination of sperm and egg producing Dan Glover are astronomical and yet here you are. No one is talking about retroactive abortion. Abortion decisions are made from the Bottom Up. Speaking about the "potential" of an unformed human life is meaningless. It could be Jesus, it could be Hitler, it could miscarry and not even be noticed. All are potential at conception. Until about 30 years ago everything involved in reproduction was left to chance. Today we hanging 4D sonogram portraits of little Johnny or Janie on the refrigerator and color code their nurseries. On average every adult male is producing about 50,000 sperm per minute. Woman are born with about 1 to 2 million egg cells. All are potentially human. Monty Python said it well: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0kJHQpvgB8 "Every sperm is sacred Every sperm is great If a sperm is wasted, God gets quite irate." This notion of "potential human life" is as absurd as Jains and their gauze masks. Your friend Fred is potential realized and I have great admiration for all who succeed and find joy in the face of adversity. But many years ago I did some observations at the Georgia Retardation Center. It was a place that smelled of Lysol and urine and the people living there ranged from being in near vegetative states to having profound behavioral problems. In all cases the families of these people could not cope with either the emotional or financial strain of caring for them and they had become wards of the state. That too is potential realized. As prenatal tests are more and better able to identify the potential for such defects I for one am not willing to condemn a couple that decides not the take on the kind of hardship raising a special needs child demands. I believe with Down's syndrome, which has been detectable through screening for many years, as many as 80% of couples elect not to carry through with the pregnancy. I think this is a case of intellectual patterns being able to guide and mold biological patterns. [Arlo] The MOQ values the life of the unborn child over MOST biological, social and intellectual patterns. [Krimel] Arlo, here you disappoint me by using this oxymoron of the religious right "unborn child." There is no such thing as an unborn child. We don't refer to humans as "children" until they can walk. The idea that a fertilized egg cell is entitled to rights is ludicrous. Technology has made it so that every cell in my beard is "potentially" human. Should I be charged with manslaughter for shaving? Is masturbation to be equated with genocide? Menstruation with murder? >From the intellectual point of view I would hope that every child is conceived in a loving relationship by people who devotedly wish to participate in the trials and joys of parenting. I would like for every child to come into the world with the potential to love and be loved. And I think it is grossly immortal for people to take on this responsibility casually, thoughtlessly. I think this appeal to the "unborn" and "potential" is some kind of perverse blind devotion to chance. I think that children should be brought into the world as a matter of "choice". But to the extent that free will can be applied to something as important and life changing as parenthood; it should be exercised as a matter of individual conscience. But for me the bottom line on this debate was made clear by Rachel on the show "Friends". She has been quoted to me numerous times by the females in my family: "No uterus. No opinion!" Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
