Hello everyone ---------------------------------------- > Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2009 04:49:32 +0000 > From: [email protected] > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [MD] Quality-as-pre-conceptual/MOQ as conceptual. > > > > [dmb] > > > >> Pirsig says that the MOQ is to be distinguished from the Quality it > > > >> talks about. > > > > > > > > [Krimel] >> All experience gets rendered into concepts. If it didn't we >> couldn't talk about it at all. > > > > [Dan] >> (1) In the MOQ, everything is a concept. That's why it's so important >> to understand the part in ZMM concerning gravity. (2) There is no >> such thing as gravity but that which we give a name. Craig: > Does (1) mean that everything in reality is a concept or that everything > in a metaphysics is a concept? > The latter seems correct. > The former seems ill-conceived. Dan: A concept is a concept. Craig: Is the argument?: > a) There is a concept for everything that exists. > b) :. Everything that exists is a concept. > This is invalid. > My hackneyed examples: > Dinosaurs existed millions of years ago; the concept of dinosaur > did not. > Mazes are complex; the concept of maze is simple. Dan: "A thing that has no value doesn't exist." [LILA] There is only value. So if there is no concept of a thing it doesn't exist. [Dan] >> In the MOQ, inorganic patterns of value. . .correspond to objective, >> external reality but exist only in our imagination as per ZMM.
Craig: > The evolution of patterns must take place where they exist, > so on this view the evolution must take place in our imagination. > This seems a backward step for the MoQ. Dan: Evolution like everything else takes place in our imagination. Where else could it take place? How would you know? > > > > > "The world has no existence whatsoever outside the human imagination." [RMP, > ZMM] Craig: I think Pirsig is speaking metaphorically here. > Otherwise, I see philosophical problems of solipsism, skepticism, etc. > looming for the MoQ. Dan: I think that's why Mr Pirsig says philosophic idealism is of value in marrying science with the MOQ. One has to understand the philosophocal problems of solopsism, etc. in order to answer the questions. > > > > [Dan] >> I would say that the MOQ allows contradictory views to coexist since >> although the levels are discrete, they operate all at the same time. > >Craig: > I don’t think the MoQ levels operating at the same time leads to any > contradiction. > Do you have an example? Dan: Your example is what I had in mind when I wrote this. Craig: > To me a better way to see it is that the MoQ allows various ways to structure > the world, > which need not contradict each other. Dan: I think the levels lend themselves to multiple interpretations. Thank you, Dan _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live™ SkyDrive: Get 25 GB of free online storage. http://windowslive.com/online/skydrive?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_skydrive_032009 Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
