Krimel,
What a pile of dog doodoo. You need to use the authority of a 19th
century philosopher? Good one.
If you strip away all conceptual constructs (patterns) from your
explanation of perceptions and sensations you are left with less than
fizz, but I'm willing to accept all that you say as your
ever-changing, collection of interrelated and interconnected,
inorganic, biological, social and intellectual, static patterns of
value responding to Dynamic Quality, a middle way.
Marsha
At 06:20 PM 3/25/2009, you wrote:
> >[Krimel]
> >To answer I must use some kind of weird mojo code because concepts is all
I
> >can offer.
> >
> >But sensation is independent of conceptual construction.
>
>Marsha
> 'Sensation' is conceptually constructed and established by
>conventional agreement. What is indivisible, undefinable and unknowable?
>
>[Krimel]
>Well actually, no. You seem to be entirely missing the point. You are
>talking about "sensation" as a concept. I have tried repeatedly to explain
>that any conversation will be conducting using concepts. At least in the
>strict sense of empiricism all concepts arise from sensation. They are
>derived from it and depend upon it. Concepts are conventional agreements
>about sensory experience. The term "sensation" is a conventional term that
>refers to this process but individual experience is not dependent upon
>concepts rather the reverse it the case.
[Marsha]
There is experience and then there is what you have to say about the
experience which is built on analogues. You want to call experience
by the analogue 'sensation'? Not quality?
At 11:29 AM 3/18/2009, in the ' Chance v. Dynamic Quality' thread
you, Krimel, wrote:
Almost all of the sensory pathways lead directly to the thalamus in the
midbrain. From there they are routed to other areas of the brain for
processing. The amygdala is one of the first stops and it basically sums the
data present and pronounces it good or bad in emotional terms. All of this
is prior to conception or intellectual evaluation.
Isn't this describing sensation as some kind of biochemical and
neurological event? Do you think this "system" causes sensation? Is
it experience? Is it Quality? Are you a scientific realist, someone
with the view that the world described by science is the real world?
[Krimel]
As I have said about a zillion times it requires concepts to communication
about percepts. "Sensation" is a concept that refers to a particular kind of
experience. Perception is pre-conceptual or pre-intellectual. James uses
perception as a base but acknowledges that it is a unity of sensation.
Pirsig isn't clear at all what per-intellectual means. Leading edge of
experience... primary esthetic continuum... James and Pirsig seem to agree
that conception depends on perception. It arises from perception and as
James says conceptions become perceptions. The "concept" "automobile" is
parked in my driveway. It is conception reified.
I am saying that just as conception arises from perception; perception
arises from sensation. Sensation can be seen as you say as a bio-chemical
neural event. But as I mentioned before, sensation is:
And always at the edge.
It is the fizz of conversion.
Light becoming sight and warmth.
Force becoming sound, touch, motion and space.
Chemistry becoming taste and smell and itch.
They are all fish flopping in the net.
I believe your question is does this "fizz" cause "sensation". I am tempted
to just say this "fizz" IS "sensation." But however, you phrase a question
like this; when you use the term cause, you need to be clear about what kind
of cause. I would say that sensation, that bio-physical process, is a
necessary but not a sufficient cause. Those bio-physical processes must be
there and they influence what is perceptually and conceptually possible but
there are nests of interacting factors that shape experience and many of
them are neither necessary nor sufficient... They are just shit happening.
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