Marsha, I think thats a useful way of picking patterns. -R
________________________________ From: MarshaV <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Sunday, April 12, 2009 8:08:53 AM Subject: Re: [MD] Daffodils: a religion of experience. Hello Ron, Do you think we pick our patterns for their usefulness? And useful for what, remaining static or becoming dynamic? I really do not see that we pick anything. With a bit of understanding the best we get to do is dump a lot of patterns that are totally useless. Anyway, that's my take on it. Marsha At 07:40 AM 4/12/2009, you wrote: >Marsha, >For the wise, useful until a better way is realized or presented. >Yes, I agree that no one holds a pattern they deem untrue >but it is in our steadfastness to patterns which lies our >undoing. The ability to use meaningful patterns as tools >not clinging to them is key. The ability to be open to various >types of meaning and use. > >-Ron > > > > >________________________________ >From: MarshaV <[email protected]> >To: [email protected] >Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2009 9:31:57 AM >Subject: Re: [MD] Daffodils: a religion of experience. > > >Ron, > >Useful to????????? Alpha dog? > >Does anybody understand that nobody holds a pattern they believe to >be untrue? It is not possible. Isn't that extraordinary? > >Do you disagree with this? > > >Marsha > > > > > > > > > > >At 08:36 AM 4/11/2009, you wrote: > >Marsha, > >some might say that truth is useful meaning. > > > > > > > > > >________________________________ > >From: MarshaV <[email protected]> > >To: [email protected] > >Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2009 4:12:16 AM > >Subject: Re: [MD] Daffodils: a religion of experience. > > > > > >Will, > > > >Do you think there is a primary societal division between the > >intellectuals and the masses? > > > >By the way, what the heck is the 'truth'? The way I interpret Lila > >in Chapter 14, individuals only hold patterns they consider truth, no > >one holds a pattern they consider false. What then is truth? If a > >pattern is repeated 10,000 times as opposed to 9 times is it more > >true? Is truth relationship? Does truth flash in and out of > >existence like some subatomic particle? Do the intellectuals hold > >the truth? Do the masses hold the truth? > > > >What was Huxley's mind like? > > > > > >Marsha > > > > > > > > > >At 01:33 AM 4/11/2009, you wrote: > > >Hi KO, > > > > > >It's always easy to find controversy in the spiritual teachers. They are > > >obviously fringe, and dealt with in that way. However, the teachings > > >can always be separated from the person. Perhaps they are able to > > >grasp concepts of group consciousness, and act just as a medium. This > > >is not to say that deceit does not exist in this sector. I have > > "Krishnamurti > > >to Himself - His last Journal", which he recorded at Pine > > >Cottage. I sometimes read > > >it randomly to give me something to think about as I fall asleep. > > > > > >The only book I don't like of Huxley's is the Doors of > > Perception. I think he > > >made a little bit too much of his trips. But with a mind like his, > > >I guess that is > > >what happens. > > > > > >Cheers, > > >Willblake2 > > > > > > > > >On Apr 10, 2009, at 7:03:49 AM, "kieffer odigaunt" > > ><[email protected]> wrote: > > >Hi Marsha and Will, > > > > > >Krishnamurti's ideas have always appealed to me because of his > lack of dogma > > >and totally pragmatic approach. As part of his call for the individual to > > >take responsibility ('You are the World') he many times talked about the > > >possibility that the very structure of the brain can change. I > am reading a > > >book lately:- The Brain that Changes Itself - about recent advances in > > >Neuro-plasticity; it seems Krishnamurti was right and it adds gives more > > >credibility to the transformational 'Process' as he called it that he > > >underwent at Ojai. Perhaps he had found a way to apprehend dynamic quality > > >more clearly than the rest of us. > > > > > >His affair with the wife of his editorial manager 'Lives in the > Shadow With > > >J Krishnamurti' written by her daughter, although very controversial in no > > >way detracts from the importance of what Krishnamurti advised. > > > > > >Aldous Huxley (along with John Dewey) was another famous pupil of > > >F.M.Alexander and even based one of the characters of his novel > 'Eyeless in > > >Gaza' on Alexander. Huxley died from cancer of the tongue whilst under the > > >effects of LSD. > > > > > >-KO > > > > > >2009/4/10 MarshaV <[email protected]> > > > > > > > > > > > Greetings Will, > > > > > > > > I've been to Ojai many times, and can close my eyes and > picture the ride > > > > there. Beautiful! You don't own the yard with the mower as > lawn ornament, > > > > do you? > > > > > > > > The topic of Krishnamurit's life has come up before. I read a > biography a > > > > very long time ago. Someone in this forum mentioned he was > > having an affair > > > > with his brother's wife. I do not care to make any judgements on his > > > > character. I saw him speak in an auditorium at Madison Square > > Garden.. When > > > > he finished speaking he just got up and left the stage. It was very > > > > strange. I read 'Think On These Things' many, many years ago, > > It might have > > > > been my first reading of a metaphysical type, and have been curious to > > > > reread it. Also I want to read the dialogues between he and > > David Bohm as a > > > > way to acquaint myself with David Bohm. > > > > > > > > After listening to the In Our Times, 'Brave New World', and hearing the > > > > discussion concerning Aldus Huxley, I'd have to say he was just another > > > > brujo. It was a depressing IOT program.. > > > > > > > > > > > > Marsha > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > At 12:22 AM 4/10/2009, you wrote: > > > > > > > >> Hi Marsha, > > > >> > > > >> If you want to get a historical perspective on Krishnamurti, > and how he > > > >> was brought up through the religion of theosophy, read "Madam > > > >> Blavatsky's Baboon". It is an enjoyable read although somewhat > > > >> biased. Oh, and Aldus Huxley hung out a little with > > Krishnamurti, here in > > > >> Ojai, near where I live. > > > >> > > > >> Willblake2 > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> On Apr 8, 2009, at 3:34:46 AM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: > > > >> > > > >> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0060916095 > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> Krishnamurti: > > > >> > > > >> Would you like to discuss with you the problem of freedom. It > > > >> is a very complex problem, needing deep study and understanding. We > > > >> hear much talk about freedom, religious freedom, and the freedom to > > > >> do what one would like to do. Volumes have been written on all this > > > >> by scholars. But I think we can approach it very simply and directly, > > > >> and perhaps that will bring us to the real solution. > > > >> > > > >> I wonder if you have ever stopped to observe the marvellous > > > >> glow in the west as the sun sets, with the shy young moon just over > > > >> the trees? Often at that hour the river is very calm, and then > > > >> everything is reflected on its surface: the bridge, the train that > > > >> goes over it, the tender moon, and presently, as it grows dark, the > > > >> stars.. It is all very beautiful. And to observe, to watch, to give > > > >> your whole attention to something beautiful, your mind must be free > > > >> of preoccupations, must it not? It must not be occupied with > > > >> problems, with worries, with speculations. It is only when the mind > > > >> is very quiet that you can really observe, for then the mind is > > > >> sensitive to extraordinary beauty; and perhaps here is a clue to our > > > >> problem of freedom. > > > >> > > > >> Now, what does it mean to be free? Is freedom a matter of doing > > > >> what happens to suit you, going where you like, thinking what you > > > >> will? This you do anyhow. Merely to have independence, does that mean > > > >> freedom? Many people in the world are independent, but very few are > > > >> free. Freedom implies great intelligence, does it not? To be free is > > > >> to be intelligent, but intelligence does not come into being by just > > > >> wishing to be free; it comes into being only when you begin to > > > >> understand your whole environment, the social, religious, parental > > > >> and traditional influences that are continually closing in on you. > > > >> But to understand the various influences - the influence of your > > > >> parents, of your government, of society, of the culture to which you > > > >> belong, of your beliefs, your gods and superstitions, of the > > > >> tradition to which you conform unthinkingly - to understand all these > > > >> and become free from them requires deep insight; but you generally > > > >> give in to them because inwardly you are frightened. You are afraid > > > >> of not having a good position in life; you are afraid of what your > > > >> priest will say; you are afraid of not following tradition, of not > > > >> doing the right thing. But freedom is really a state of mind in which > > > >> there is no fear or compulsion, no urge to be secure. > > > >> > > > >> Don't most of us want to be safe? Don't we want to be told what > > > >> marvellous people we are, how lovely we look, or what extraordinary > > > >> intelligence we have? Otherwise we would not put letters after our > > > >> names. All that kind of thing gives us self-assurance, a sense of > > > >> importance. We all want to be famous people - and the moment we want > > > >> to be something, we are no longer free. > > > >> > > > >> Please see this, for it is the real clue to the understanding > > > >> of the problem of freedom. Whether in this world of politicians, > > > >> power, position and authority, or in the so-called spiritual world > > > >> where you aspire to be virtuous, noble, saintly, the moment you want > > > >> to be somebody you are no longer free. But the man or the woman who > > > >> sees the absurdity of all these things and whose heart is therefore > > > >> innocent, and therefore not moved by the desire to be somebody - such > > > >> a person is free. If you understand the simplicity of it you will > > > >> also see its extraordinary beauty and depth. > > > >> > > > >> After all, examinations are for that purpose: to give you a > > > >> position, to make you somebody. Titles, position and knowledge > > > >> encourage you to be something. Have you not noticed that your parents > > > >> and teachers tell you that you must amount to something in life, that > > > >> you must be successful like your uncle or your grandfather? Or you > > > >> try to imitate the example of some hero, to be like the Masters, the > > > >> saints; so you are never free. Whether you follow the example of a > > > >> Master, a saint, a teacher, a relative, or stick to a particular > > > >> tradition, it all implies a demand on your part to be something; and > > > >> it is only when you really understand this fact that there > is freedom.. > > > >> > > > >> The function of education, then, is to help you from childhood > > > >> not to imitate anybody, but to be yourself all the time. And this is > > > >> a most difficult thing to do: whether you are ugly or beautiful, > > > >> whether you are envious or jealous, always to be what you are, but > > > >> understand it. To be yourself is very difficult, because you think > > > >> that what you are is ignoble, and that if you could only change what > > > >> you are into something noble it would be marvellous; but that never > > > >> happens. Whereas, if you look at what you actually are and understand > > > >> it, then in that very understanding there is a transformation. So > > > >> freedom lies, not in trying to become something different, nor in > > > >> doing whatever you happen to feel like doing, nor in following the > > > >> authority of tradition, of your parents, of your guru, but in > > > >> understanding what you are from moment to moment. > > > >> > > > >> You see, you are not educated for this; your education > > > >> encourages you to become something or other - but that is not the > > > >> understanding of yourself. Your `self' is a very complex thing; it is > > > >> not merely the entity that goes to school, that quarrels, that plays > > > >> games, that is afraid, but it is also something hidden, not obvious. > > > >> It is made up, not only of all the thoughts that you think, but also > > > >> of all the things that have been put into your mind by other people, > > > >> by books, by the newspapers, by your leaders; and it is possible to > > > >> understand all that only when you don't want to be somebody, when you > > > >> don't imitate, when you don't follow - which means, really, when you > > > >> are in revolt against the whole tradition of trying to become > > > >> something. That is the only true revolution, leading to extraordinary > > > >> freedom. To cultivate this freedom is the real function of education. > > > >> > > > >> Your parents, your teachers and your own desires want you to be > > > >> identified with something or other in order to be happy, secure. But > > > >> to be intelligent, must you not break through all the influences that > > > >> enslave and crush you? > > > >> > > > >> The hope of a new world is in those of you who begin to see > > > >> what is false and revolt against it, not just verbally but actually. > > > >> And that is why you should seek the right kind of education; for it > > > >> is only when you grow in freedom that you can create a new world not > > > >> based on tradition or shaped according to the idiosyncrasy of some > > > >> philosopher or idealist. But there can be no freedom as long as you > > > >> are merely trying to become somebody, or imitate a noble example. > > > >> (TOTT, pp.12-15) > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> .. > > > >> _____________ > > > >> > > > >> Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the > > > >> stars........... > > > >> .. > > > >> .. > > > >> > > > >> Moq_Discuss mailing list > > > >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > > > >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > > > >> Archives: > > > >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > > > >> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> Moq_Discuss mailing list > > > >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > > > >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > > > >> Archives: > > > >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > > > >> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > > >> > > > > > > > > . > > > > _____________ > > > > > > > > Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the > > stars.......... > > > > . > > > > . > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > > > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > > > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > > > > Archives: > > > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > > > > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > > > > > >Moq_Discuss mailing list > > >Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > > >http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > > >Archives: > > >http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > > >http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > > > > > > > >Moq_Discuss mailing list > > >Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > > >http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > > >Archives: > > >http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > > >http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > > >. > >_____________ > > > >Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars......... > >. > >. > > > >Moq_Discuss mailing list > >Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > >http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > >Archives: > >http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > >http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > > > > > > > > >Moq_Discuss mailing list > >Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > >http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > >Archives: > >http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > >http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > >. >_____________ > >Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars......... >.. >. > >Moq_Discuss mailing list >Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >Archives: >http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > > > >Moq_Discuss mailing list >Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >Archives: >http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ . _____________ Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars......... . . 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