Hi Marsha, what about someone who has the pattern of smoking; they enjoy the taste but know that it is bad for them. Can such addictive patterns be true too?
-KO 2009/4/11 MarshaV <[email protected]> > > Ron, > > Useful to????????? Alpha dog? > > Does anybody understand that nobody holds a pattern they believe to be > untrue? It is not possible. Isn't that extraordinary? > > Do you disagree with this? > > > Marsha > > > > > > > > > > > > At 08:36 AM 4/11/2009, you wrote: > >> Marsha, >> some might say that truth is useful meaning. >> >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> From: MarshaV <[email protected]> >> To: [email protected] >> Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2009 4:12:16 AM >> Subject: Re: [MD] Daffodils: a religion of experience. >> >> >> Will, >> >> Do you think there is a primary societal division between the >> intellectuals and the masses? >> >> By the way, what the heck is the 'truth'? The way I interpret Lila >> in Chapter 14, individuals only hold patterns they consider truth, no >> one holds a pattern they consider false. What then is truth? If a >> pattern is repeated 10,000 times as opposed to 9 times is it more >> true? Is truth relationship? Does truth flash in and out of >> existence like some subatomic particle? Do the intellectuals hold >> the truth? Do the masses hold the truth? >> >> What was Huxley's mind like? >> >> >> Marsha >> >> >> >> >> At 01:33 AM 4/11/2009, you wrote: >> >Hi KO, >> > >> >It's always easy to find controversy in the spiritual teachers. They are >> >obviously fringe, and dealt with in that way. However, the teachings >> >can always be separated from the person. Perhaps they are able to >> >grasp concepts of group consciousness, and act just as a medium. This >> >is not to say that deceit does not exist in this sector. I have >> "Krishnamurti >> >to Himself - His last Journal", which he recorded at Pine >> >Cottage. I sometimes read >> >it randomly to give me something to think about as I fall asleep. >> > >> >The only book I don't like of Huxley's is the Doors of Perception. I >> think he >> >made a little bit too much of his trips. But with a mind like his, >> >I guess that is >> >what happens. >> > >> >Cheers, >> >Willblake2 >> > >> > >> >On Apr 10, 2009, at 7:03:49 AM, "kieffer odigaunt" >> ><[email protected]> wrote: >> >Hi Marsha and Will, >> > >> >Krishnamurti's ideas have always appealed to me because of his lack of >> dogma >> >and totally pragmatic approach. As part of his call for the individual to >> >take responsibility ('You are the World') he many times talked about the >> >possibility that the very structure of the brain can change. I am reading >> a >> >book lately:- The Brain that Changes Itself - about recent advances in >> >Neuro-plasticity; it seems Krishnamurti was right and it adds gives more >> >credibility to the transformational 'Process' as he called it that he >> >underwent at Ojai. Perhaps he had found a way to apprehend dynamic >> quality >> >more clearly than the rest of us. >> > >> >His affair with the wife of his editorial manager 'Lives in the Shadow >> With >> >J Krishnamurti' written by her daughter, although very controversial in >> no >> >way detracts from the importance of what Krishnamurti advised. >> > >> >Aldous Huxley (along with John Dewey) was another famous pupil of >> >F.M.Alexander and even based one of the characters of his novel 'Eyeless >> in >> >Gaza' on Alexander. Huxley died from cancer of the tongue whilst under >> the >> >effects of LSD. >> > >> >-KO >> > >> >2009/4/10 MarshaV <[email protected]> >> > >> > > >> > > Greetings Will, >> > > >> > > I've been to Ojai many times, and can close my eyes and picture the >> ride >> > > there. Beautiful! You don't own the yard with the mower as lawn >> ornament, >> > > do you? >> > > >> > > The topic of Krishnamurit's life has come up before. I read a >> biography a >> > > very long time ago. Someone in this forum mentioned he was having an >> affair >> > > with his brother's wife. I do not care to make any judgements on his >> > > character. I saw him speak in an auditorium at Madison Square Garden. >> When >> > > he finished speaking he just got up and left the stage. It was very >> > > strange. I read 'Think On These Things' many, many years ago, It might >> have >> > > been my first reading of a metaphysical type, and have been curious to >> > > reread it. Also I want to read the dialogues between he and David Bohm >> as a >> > > way to acquaint myself with David Bohm. >> > > >> > > After listening to the In Our Times, 'Brave New World', and hearing >> the >> > > discussion concerning Aldus Huxley, I'd have to say he was just >> another >> > > brujo. It was a depressing IOT program. >> > > >> > > >> > > Marsha >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > At 12:22 AM 4/10/2009, you wrote: >> > > >> > >> Hi Marsha, >> > >> >> > >> If you want to get a historical perspective on Krishnamurti, and how >> he >> > >> was brought up through the religion of theosophy, read "Madam >> > >> Blavatsky's Baboon". It is an enjoyable read although somewhat >> > >> biased. Oh, and Aldus Huxley hung out a little with Krishnamurti, >> here in >> > >> Ojai, near where I live. >> > >> >> > >> Willblake2 >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> On Apr 8, 2009, at 3:34:46 AM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: >> > >> >> > >> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0060916095 >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> Krishnamurti: >> > >> >> > >> Would you like to discuss with you the problem of freedom. It >> > >> is a very complex problem, needing deep study and understanding. We >> > >> hear much talk about freedom, religious freedom, and the freedom to >> > >> do what one would like to do. Volumes have been written on all this >> > >> by scholars. But I think we can approach it very simply and directly, >> > >> and perhaps that will bring us to the real solution. >> > >> >> > >> I wonder if you have ever stopped to observe the marvellous >> > >> glow in the west as the sun sets, with the shy young moon just over >> > >> the trees? Often at that hour the river is very calm, and then >> > >> everything is reflected on its surface: the bridge, the train that >> > >> goes over it, the tender moon, and presently, as it grows dark, the >> > >> stars. It is all very beautiful. And to observe, to watch, to give >> > >> your whole attention to something beautiful, your mind must be free >> > >> of preoccupations, must it not? It must not be occupied with >> > >> problems, with worries, with speculations. It is only when the mind >> > >> is very quiet that you can really observe, for then the mind is >> > >> sensitive to extraordinary beauty; and perhaps here is a clue to our >> > >> problem of freedom. >> > >> >> > >> Now, what does it mean to be free? Is freedom a matter of doing >> > >> what happens to suit you, going where you like, thinking what you >> > >> will? This you do anyhow. Merely to have independence, does that mean >> > >> freedom? Many people in the world are independent, but very few are >> > >> free. Freedom implies great intelligence, does it not? To be free is >> > >> to be intelligent, but intelligence does not come into being by just >> > >> wishing to be free; it comes into being only when you begin to >> > >> understand your whole environment, the social, religious, parental >> > >> and traditional influences that are continually closing in on you. >> > >> But to understand the various influences - the influence of your >> > >> parents, of your government, of society, of the culture to which you >> > >> belong, of your beliefs, your gods and superstitions, of the >> > >> tradition to which you conform unthinkingly - to understand all these >> > >> and become free from them requires deep insight; but you generally >> > >> give in to them because inwardly you are frightened. You are afraid >> > >> of not having a good position in life; you are afraid of what your >> > >> priest will say; you are afraid of not following tradition, of not >> > >> doing the right thing. But freedom is really a state of mind in which >> > >> there is no fear or compulsion, no urge to be secure. >> > >> >> > >> Don't most of us want to be safe? Don't we want to be told what >> > >> marvellous people we are, how lovely we look, or what extraordinary >> > >> intelligence we have? Otherwise we would not put letters after our >> > >> names. All that kind of thing gives us self-assurance, a sense of >> > >> importance. We all want to be famous people - and the moment we want >> > >> to be something, we are no longer free. >> > >> >> > >> Please see this, for it is the real clue to the understanding >> > >> of the problem of freedom. Whether in this world of politicians, >> > >> power, position and authority, or in the so-called spiritual world >> > >> where you aspire to be virtuous, noble, saintly, the moment you want >> > >> to be somebody you are no longer free. But the man or the woman who >> > >> sees the absurdity of all these things and whose heart is therefore >> > >> innocent, and therefore not moved by the desire to be somebody - such >> > >> a person is free. If you understand the simplicity of it you will >> > >> also see its extraordinary beauty and depth. >> > >> >> > >> After all, examinations are for that purpose: to give you a >> > >> position, to make you somebody. Titles, position and knowledge >> > >> encourage you to be something. Have you not noticed that your parents >> > >> and teachers tell you that you must amount to something in life, that >> > >> you must be successful like your uncle or your grandfather? Or you >> > >> try to imitate the example of some hero, to be like the Masters, the >> > >> saints; so you are never free. Whether you follow the example of a >> > >> Master, a saint, a teacher, a relative, or stick to a particular >> > >> tradition, it all implies a demand on your part to be something; and >> > >> it is only when you really understand this fact that there is >> freedom.. >> > >> >> > >> The function of education, then, is to help you from childhood >> > >> not to imitate anybody, but to be yourself all the time. And this is >> > >> a most difficult thing to do: whether you are ugly or beautiful, >> > >> whether you are envious or jealous, always to be what you are, but >> > >> understand it. To be yourself is very difficult, because you think >> > >> that what you are is ignoble, and that if you could only change what >> > >> you are into something noble it would be marvellous; but that never >> > >> happens. Whereas, if you look at what you actually are and understand >> > >> it, then in that very understanding there is a transformation. So >> > >> freedom lies, not in trying to become something different, nor in >> > >> doing whatever you happen to feel like doing, nor in following the >> > >> authority of tradition, of your parents, of your guru, but in >> > >> understanding what you are from moment to moment. >> > >> >> > >> You see, you are not educated for this; your education >> > >> encourages you to become something or other - but that is not the >> > >> understanding of yourself. Your `self' is a very complex thing; it is >> > >> not merely the entity that goes to school, that quarrels, that plays >> > >> games, that is afraid, but it is also something hidden, not obvious. >> > >> It is made up, not only of all the thoughts that you think, but also >> > >> of all the things that have been put into your mind by other people, >> > >> by books, by the newspapers, by your leaders; and it is possible to >> > >> understand all that only when you don't want to be somebody, when you >> > >> don't imitate, when you don't follow - which means, really, when you >> > >> are in revolt against the whole tradition of trying to become >> > >> something. That is the only true revolution, leading to extraordinary >> > >> freedom. To cultivate this freedom is the real function of education. >> > >> >> > >> Your parents, your teachers and your own desires want you to be >> > >> identified with something or other in order to be happy, secure. But >> > >> to be intelligent, must you not break through all the influences that >> > >> enslave and crush you? >> > >> >> > >> The hope of a new world is in those of you who begin to see >> > >> what is false and revolt against it, not just verbally but actually. >> > >> And that is why you should seek the right kind of education; for it >> > >> is only when you grow in freedom that you can create a new world not >> > >> based on tradition or shaped according to the idiosyncrasy of some >> > >> philosopher or idealist. But there can be no freedom as long as you >> > >> are merely trying to become somebody, or imitate a noble example. >> > >> (TOTT, pp.12-15) >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> .. >> > >> _____________ >> > >> >> > >> Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the >> > >> stars........... >> > >> .. >> > >> .. >> > >> >> > >> Moq_Discuss mailing list >> > >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> > >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> > >> Archives: >> > >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> > >> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> Moq_Discuss mailing list >> > >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> > >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> > >> Archives: >> > >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> > >> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ >> > >> >> > > >> > > . >> > > _____________ >> > > >> > > Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the >> stars.......... >> > > . >> > > . >> > > Moq_Discuss mailing list >> > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> > > Archives: >> > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> > > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ >> > > >> >Moq_Discuss mailing list >> >Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> >http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> >Archives: >> >http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> >http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ >> > >> > >> >Moq_Discuss mailing list >> >Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> >http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> >Archives: >> >http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> >http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ >> >> . >> _____________ >> >> Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the >> stars......... >> . >> . >> >> Moq_Discuss mailing list >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> Archives: >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ >> >> >> >> >> Moq_Discuss mailing list >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> Archives: >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ >> > > . > _____________ > > Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars......... > . > . > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
