Hi Marsha,
what about someone who has the pattern of smoking; they enjoy the taste but
know that it is bad for them.
Can such addictive patterns be true too?
-KO
2009/4/11 MarshaV <[email protected]>
>
> Ron,
>
> Useful to????????? Alpha dog?
>
> Does anybody understand that nobody holds a pattern they believe to be
> untrue? It is not possible. Isn't that extraordinary?
>
> Do you disagree with this?
>
>
> Marsha
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> At 08:36 AM 4/11/2009, you wrote:
>
>> Marsha,
>> some might say that truth is useful meaning.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: MarshaV <[email protected]>
>> To: [email protected]
>> Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2009 4:12:16 AM
>> Subject: Re: [MD] Daffodils: a religion of experience.
>>
>>
>> Will,
>>
>> Do you think there is a primary societal division between the
>> intellectuals and the masses?
>>
>> By the way, what the heck is the 'truth'? The way I interpret Lila
>> in Chapter 14, individuals only hold patterns they consider truth, no
>> one holds a pattern they consider false. What then is truth? If a
>> pattern is repeated 10,000 times as opposed to 9 times is it more
>> true? Is truth relationship? Does truth flash in and out of
>> existence like some subatomic particle? Do the intellectuals hold
>> the truth? Do the masses hold the truth?
>>
>> What was Huxley's mind like?
>>
>>
>> Marsha
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> At 01:33 AM 4/11/2009, you wrote:
>> >Hi KO,
>> >
>> >It's always easy to find controversy in the spiritual teachers. They are
>> >obviously fringe, and dealt with in that way. However, the teachings
>> >can always be separated from the person. Perhaps they are able to
>> >grasp concepts of group consciousness, and act just as a medium. This
>> >is not to say that deceit does not exist in this sector. I have
>> "Krishnamurti
>> >to Himself - His last Journal", which he recorded at Pine
>> >Cottage. I sometimes read
>> >it randomly to give me something to think about as I fall asleep.
>> >
>> >The only book I don't like of Huxley's is the Doors of Perception. I
>> think he
>> >made a little bit too much of his trips. But with a mind like his,
>> >I guess that is
>> >what happens.
>> >
>> >Cheers,
>> >Willblake2
>> >
>> >
>> >On Apr 10, 2009, at 7:03:49 AM, "kieffer odigaunt"
>> ><[email protected]> wrote:
>> >Hi Marsha and Will,
>> >
>> >Krishnamurti's ideas have always appealed to me because of his lack of
>> dogma
>> >and totally pragmatic approach. As part of his call for the individual to
>> >take responsibility ('You are the World') he many times talked about the
>> >possibility that the very structure of the brain can change. I am reading
>> a
>> >book lately:- The Brain that Changes Itself - about recent advances in
>> >Neuro-plasticity; it seems Krishnamurti was right and it adds gives more
>> >credibility to the transformational 'Process' as he called it that he
>> >underwent at Ojai. Perhaps he had found a way to apprehend dynamic
>> quality
>> >more clearly than the rest of us.
>> >
>> >His affair with the wife of his editorial manager 'Lives in the Shadow
>> With
>> >J Krishnamurti' written by her daughter, although very controversial in
>> no
>> >way detracts from the importance of what Krishnamurti advised.
>> >
>> >Aldous Huxley (along with John Dewey) was another famous pupil of
>> >F.M.Alexander and even based one of the characters of his novel 'Eyeless
>> in
>> >Gaza' on Alexander. Huxley died from cancer of the tongue whilst under
>> the
>> >effects of LSD.
>> >
>> >-KO
>> >
>> >2009/4/10 MarshaV <[email protected]>
>> >
>> > >
>> > > Greetings Will,
>> > >
>> > > I've been to Ojai many times, and can close my eyes and picture the
>> ride
>> > > there. Beautiful! You don't own the yard with the mower as lawn
>> ornament,
>> > > do you?
>> > >
>> > > The topic of Krishnamurit's life has come up before. I read a
>> biography a
>> > > very long time ago. Someone in this forum mentioned he was having an
>> affair
>> > > with his brother's wife. I do not care to make any judgements on his
>> > > character. I saw him speak in an auditorium at Madison Square Garden.
>> When
>> > > he finished speaking he just got up and left the stage. It was very
>> > > strange. I read 'Think On These Things' many, many years ago, It might
>> have
>> > > been my first reading of a metaphysical type, and have been curious to
>> > > reread it. Also I want to read the dialogues between he and David Bohm
>> as a
>> > > way to acquaint myself with David Bohm.
>> > >
>> > > After listening to the In Our Times, 'Brave New World', and hearing
>> the
>> > > discussion concerning Aldus Huxley, I'd have to say he was just
>> another
>> > > brujo. It was a depressing IOT program.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Marsha
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > At 12:22 AM 4/10/2009, you wrote:
>> > >
>> > >> Hi Marsha,
>> > >>
>> > >> If you want to get a historical perspective on Krishnamurti, and how
>> he
>> > >> was brought up through the religion of theosophy, read "Madam
>> > >> Blavatsky's Baboon". It is an enjoyable read although somewhat
>> > >> biased. Oh, and Aldus Huxley hung out a little with Krishnamurti,
>> here in
>> > >> Ojai, near where I live.
>> > >>
>> > >> Willblake2
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> On Apr 8, 2009, at 3:34:46 AM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote:
>> > >>
>> > >> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0060916095
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> Krishnamurti:
>> > >>
>> > >> Would you like to discuss with you the problem of freedom. It
>> > >> is a very complex problem, needing deep study and understanding. We
>> > >> hear much talk about freedom, religious freedom, and the freedom to
>> > >> do what one would like to do. Volumes have been written on all this
>> > >> by scholars. But I think we can approach it very simply and directly,
>> > >> and perhaps that will bring us to the real solution.
>> > >>
>> > >> I wonder if you have ever stopped to observe the marvellous
>> > >> glow in the west as the sun sets, with the shy young moon just over
>> > >> the trees? Often at that hour the river is very calm, and then
>> > >> everything is reflected on its surface: the bridge, the train that
>> > >> goes over it, the tender moon, and presently, as it grows dark, the
>> > >> stars. It is all very beautiful. And to observe, to watch, to give
>> > >> your whole attention to something beautiful, your mind must be free
>> > >> of preoccupations, must it not? It must not be occupied with
>> > >> problems, with worries, with speculations. It is only when the mind
>> > >> is very quiet that you can really observe, for then the mind is
>> > >> sensitive to extraordinary beauty; and perhaps here is a clue to our
>> > >> problem of freedom.
>> > >>
>> > >> Now, what does it mean to be free? Is freedom a matter of doing
>> > >> what happens to suit you, going where you like, thinking what you
>> > >> will? This you do anyhow. Merely to have independence, does that mean
>> > >> freedom? Many people in the world are independent, but very few are
>> > >> free. Freedom implies great intelligence, does it not? To be free is
>> > >> to be intelligent, but intelligence does not come into being by just
>> > >> wishing to be free; it comes into being only when you begin to
>> > >> understand your whole environment, the social, religious, parental
>> > >> and traditional influences that are continually closing in on you.
>> > >> But to understand the various influences - the influence of your
>> > >> parents, of your government, of society, of the culture to which you
>> > >> belong, of your beliefs, your gods and superstitions, of the
>> > >> tradition to which you conform unthinkingly - to understand all these
>> > >> and become free from them requires deep insight; but you generally
>> > >> give in to them because inwardly you are frightened. You are afraid
>> > >> of not having a good position in life; you are afraid of what your
>> > >> priest will say; you are afraid of not following tradition, of not
>> > >> doing the right thing. But freedom is really a state of mind in which
>> > >> there is no fear or compulsion, no urge to be secure.
>> > >>
>> > >> Don't most of us want to be safe? Don't we want to be told what
>> > >> marvellous people we are, how lovely we look, or what extraordinary
>> > >> intelligence we have? Otherwise we would not put letters after our
>> > >> names. All that kind of thing gives us self-assurance, a sense of
>> > >> importance. We all want to be famous people - and the moment we want
>> > >> to be something, we are no longer free.
>> > >>
>> > >> Please see this, for it is the real clue to the understanding
>> > >> of the problem of freedom. Whether in this world of politicians,
>> > >> power, position and authority, or in the so-called spiritual world
>> > >> where you aspire to be virtuous, noble, saintly, the moment you want
>> > >> to be somebody you are no longer free. But the man or the woman who
>> > >> sees the absurdity of all these things and whose heart is therefore
>> > >> innocent, and therefore not moved by the desire to be somebody - such
>> > >> a person is free. If you understand the simplicity of it you will
>> > >> also see its extraordinary beauty and depth.
>> > >>
>> > >> After all, examinations are for that purpose: to give you a
>> > >> position, to make you somebody. Titles, position and knowledge
>> > >> encourage you to be something. Have you not noticed that your parents
>> > >> and teachers tell you that you must amount to something in life, that
>> > >> you must be successful like your uncle or your grandfather? Or you
>> > >> try to imitate the example of some hero, to be like the Masters, the
>> > >> saints; so you are never free. Whether you follow the example of a
>> > >> Master, a saint, a teacher, a relative, or stick to a particular
>> > >> tradition, it all implies a demand on your part to be something; and
>> > >> it is only when you really understand this fact that there is
>> freedom..
>> > >>
>> > >> The function of education, then, is to help you from childhood
>> > >> not to imitate anybody, but to be yourself all the time. And this is
>> > >> a most difficult thing to do: whether you are ugly or beautiful,
>> > >> whether you are envious or jealous, always to be what you are, but
>> > >> understand it. To be yourself is very difficult, because you think
>> > >> that what you are is ignoble, and that if you could only change what
>> > >> you are into something noble it would be marvellous; but that never
>> > >> happens. Whereas, if you look at what you actually are and understand
>> > >> it, then in that very understanding there is a transformation. So
>> > >> freedom lies, not in trying to become something different, nor in
>> > >> doing whatever you happen to feel like doing, nor in following the
>> > >> authority of tradition, of your parents, of your guru, but in
>> > >> understanding what you are from moment to moment.
>> > >>
>> > >> You see, you are not educated for this; your education
>> > >> encourages you to become something or other - but that is not the
>> > >> understanding of yourself. Your `self' is a very complex thing; it is
>> > >> not merely the entity that goes to school, that quarrels, that plays
>> > >> games, that is afraid, but it is also something hidden, not obvious.
>> > >> It is made up, not only of all the thoughts that you think, but also
>> > >> of all the things that have been put into your mind by other people,
>> > >> by books, by the newspapers, by your leaders; and it is possible to
>> > >> understand all that only when you don't want to be somebody, when you
>> > >> don't imitate, when you don't follow - which means, really, when you
>> > >> are in revolt against the whole tradition of trying to become
>> > >> something. That is the only true revolution, leading to extraordinary
>> > >> freedom. To cultivate this freedom is the real function of education.
>> > >>
>> > >> Your parents, your teachers and your own desires want you to be
>> > >> identified with something or other in order to be happy, secure. But
>> > >> to be intelligent, must you not break through all the influences that
>> > >> enslave and crush you?
>> > >>
>> > >> The hope of a new world is in those of you who begin to see
>> > >> what is false and revolt against it, not just verbally but actually.
>> > >> And that is why you should seek the right kind of education; for it
>> > >> is only when you grow in freedom that you can create a new world not
>> > >> based on tradition or shaped according to the idiosyncrasy of some
>> > >> philosopher or idealist. But there can be no freedom as long as you
>> > >> are merely trying to become somebody, or imitate a noble example.
>> > >> (TOTT, pp.12-15)
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> ..
>> > >> _____________
>> > >>
>> > >> Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the
>> > >> stars...........
>> > >> ..
>> > >> ..
>> > >>
>> > >> Moq_Discuss mailing list
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>> > >>
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>> > >>
>> > >
>> > > .
>> > > _____________
>> > >
>> > > Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the
>> stars..........
>> > > .
>> > > .
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>> .
>> _____________
>>
>> Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the
>> stars.........
>> .
>> .
>>
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>
> .
> _____________
>
> Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars.........
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