[Krimel] > To the extent that our sense of moralistic or esthetic values > are not inherited, they are inculcated by participation in our > social communities. > Your ideas about freedom of choice are both grandiose and > untenable. That freedom is mostly illusory. I am not free to > see with my ears or to enjoy eating poisons. In fact the more > closely you examine any freedom at all, the more it dissolves > into wishful thinking.
[Ham] Denial of individual freedom is what I see as the tragedy of the collectivist worldview. In the history of mankind, all discoveries, creations, and social advancements have originated as the individual's realization of value. I haven't quoted Ayn Rand for some time, but I can think of no better rebuttal of your argument that this classic statement: [Krimel] But not one single individual's contribution has ever amounted to diddly squat unless others in the community thought it worthwhile. Societies are not either individualistic or collective. They are both. They are by their very nature a negotiation of individual and collective rights. I realized that Rand has been the pivot point in countless Young Republican circle jerks but I find her hopelessly simplistic and naïve. In the "classic" quote you provide she may as well be saying "no man can shit from another man's asshole." But that has always been the level of discourse from the "new intellectuals" she seduced and corrupted both literally and figuratively. [Ham] As for "seeing with your ears" or "enjoying poisons", I'm surprised that you would resort to such churlishness after characterizing my choicemaker concept as "grandiose and untenable". [Krimel] I said that your ideas of free will are deluded. The range of choices we have is limited in so many ways that free will disappear on reflection. Do you mean conscious choices are unconscious choices? You have never answered the charge that your 'freedom' consists of going through a set of predestined motions and the 'freedom' for you is just ignorance of the outcomes. But you have never explained why your God is anything more than a band aid to cover your confusion over ex nihlo fit either. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
