Ron: I think you misinterpret meaning as some have in your example. you stated nobel truths, as interpreted, contradicts this stance: 1. Life means suffering. 2. The origin of suffering is attachment. 3. The cessation of suffering is attainable. 4. The path to the cessation of suffering.
Life is suffering suffering is desire the cessation of desire is attainable it is the PATH to the cessation of suffering The PATH to cessation means the cessation of life since life is suffering [Krimel] Maybe we are confusing some terms here or something but the path of cessation winds its way through many lifetimes. Simply dying doesn't get you off the hook with them. Every time you die, you respawn and start over. It is a bit like life in my native Norrath. Isn't the Buddhist's long-term goal is to achieve perma-death. It's like in Norrath when Sony cancels your account and bans you from the game. Of course Buddhists have some pretentious sounding Sanskrit name for it and it's more like instead of banning you from the game they unplug the server. [Ron] Socrates said the love of wisdom is the preperation for death the preperation for death is the art of the mastery of desire the mastery of suffering the mastery of life the craft of dying [Krimel] Life is a game. We all play to lose; A coaster ride. With every loops and spin We risk chucking Our lunch into our lap. We scream and squeal Our hearts race and In the end We are breathless. Call me a philistine but I'm with Dylan Thomas on this one: Do not go gentle into that good night, Old age should burn and rave at close of day; Rage, rage against the dying of the light. Though wise men at their end know dark is right, Because their words had forked no lightning they Do not go gentle into that good night. Good men, the last wave by, crying how bright Their frail deeds might have danced in a green bay, Rage, rage against the dying of the light. Wild men who caught and sang the sun in flight, And learn, too late, they grieved it on its way, Do not go gentle into that good night. Grave men, near death, who see with blinding sight Blind eyes could blaze like meteors and be gay, Rage, rage against the dying of the light. And you, my father, there on the sad height, Curse, bless me now with your fierce tears, I pray. Do not go gentle into that good night. Rage, rage against the dying of the light. ------------------------------------- [Krimel] But of course this is futile and just more "vanity." As the Old Testament sage would say. Remember now thy Creator in the days of thy youth, while the evil days come not, nor the years draw nigh, when thou shalt say, I have no pleasure in them; While the sun, or the light, or the moon, or the stars, be not darkened, nor the clouds return after the rain: In the day when the keepers of the house shall tremble, and the strong men shall bow themselves, and the grinders cease because they are few, and those that look out of the windows be darkened, And the doors shall be shut in the streets, when the sound of the grinding is low, and he shall rise up at the voice of the bird, and all the daughters of music shall be brought low; Also when they shall be afraid of that which is high, and fears shall be in the way, and the almond tree shall flourish, and the grasshopper shall be a burden, and desire shall fail: because man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets: Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern. Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was... Vanity of vanities, saith the preacher; all is vanity. ________________________________ From: Krimel <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Saturday, June 27, 2009 12:48:26 PM Subject: Re: [MD] Why the quality of the modern world is no good. Dan: Oh no I certainly didn't mean to imply that! I'm pretty sure Siddhartha discovered for himself that living a life void of desire was not the middle way. It was in fact extreme. [Krimel] Excuse my intrusion but I think this point is central to Buddhist. The Four Nobel Truths are: 1. Life means suffering. 2. The origin of suffering is attachment. 3. The cessation of suffering is attainable. 4. The path to the cessation of suffering. As I understand this the path to enlightenment involved the elimination of attachment or desire of any form. The middle way through this is not that some desire is good and other desire is bad. All desire leads to suffering. If you love someone it is your love that causes suffering when they die. [Dan] Rather, what I was getting at is that there are positive desires and negative desires. I think the Buddha might agree: it's not a feeling of satisfaction, it's the positive or negative consequences that arise from desire that provide a demarcation point. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ No virus found in this incoming message. 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