Krimel: I think the biggest problem we have is in distinguishing a world that is completely independent of us from one of our own construction.
Ron: I think the biggest problem we face as a culture and thus of science is this very assumption of a world that is completely independant of us. [Krimel] I agree that the assumption of independence is a big problem. But one can accept the assumption of an external world that we arise from and interact with. Perhaps the direction of dependence is what matters, we depend on it, it does not depend on us. [Ron quoting James:] "The great difference between percepts and concepts' is that percepts are continuous and concepts are discrete. Not discrete in their being, for conception as an act is part of the flux of feeling, but discrete from each other in their several meanings." Ron: The meaning of the concept of a world completely independant of us is the emotional security of certainty derived from the effects of its conception. It believes itself to be thus and so it believes itself to be exempt. [Krimel] But is the answer a world of our own imagining that depends completely on us? Don't we interact with a "world"? Does it act like we are controlling it? Certainty though is a critical point. Meaning, which is something we make, is reduction in uncertainty. Meaning is an estimation of probability. We do this automatically, unconsciously. It is a sense. Our conscious, rational, conceptual understanding can enhance our estimates of probability. But they can also get in the way. Gamblers believe they can tell which is which. They know when to hold 'em and know when to fold 'em. As for uncertainty and exemptions from it; there'll be time enough for countin' when the dealin's done. Krimel: It is a bleak nihilistic world forever just outside our grasp. Ron: This statement, this conception, is an emotional value placed on a concept of certainty. It makes you feel good to be certain about it. It allows one to give meaning to the concept of objectivity. [Krimel] I no longer get a thrill from certainty. I am content with a hopeful estimate of odds. [Ron] James stated that percept and concept feed into one another seemlessly they compose experience. Percept encoded concept encoded precept. They are discreet in their conceptual meanings only. Pirsig states the same, All expereince is then composed of both aspects, all expereince is then mystical, it is only the focus on the conceptual frameworks which prevents one from percieving this way. The desire for certainty in meaning blinds one to the value of meaning in the concept of certainty. [Krimel] James is quite clear that concepts arise from and are subservient to perception. That is what empiricism is, anyway you slice it. He certainly acknowledges their interrelations but when push comes to shove perception wins. I don't see at all how this can be reduced to mysticism. The Holy Grail of conceptual frameworks is one that demands the fewest concepts to account for the most percepts. At conceptual framework is a net we cast upon reality. We value the smallest net that yields the most fish. [Ron] I think this where the criticism stems from, by focusing on the primacy of percepts as raw feels, pure and unaltered by concepts as the justification of the objective "real" seperate and discreet from subjective contructions or concepts When James clearly states that they are indeed one "immediate experience" and science would do well to recognize this. [Krimel] But there is constant feedback between percepts and concepts. We are always trying to reduce uncertainty. Concepts survive to the extent that they do this. Conceptual frameworks like science, religion, philosophy, art etc are indeed pictures in a gallery but they are also the lens we admire the pictures through. [Ron] Leaving your criticisms of mysticism the criticisms of science. [Krimel] All I am saying is that mysticism seems to me like a fixed focus point and shoot. Science strikes me as an SLR with interchangeable macro, wide angle, telephoto lenses and a choice between digital and analog formats. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
