Ham, What moved you to philosophy?
Marsha -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ham Priday Sent: Saturday, July 18, 2009 4:12 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [MD] Empirical and Historical Dear Bo -- Your introduction of the personal narrative appears to have caught on, particularly with John. While it isn't the best approach to philosophy, it does offer some insight as to the development of your thought and the "frustration" that accompanied it. I suspect it is the latter which led you to the SOL thesis and compels you to argue persistently for its adoption by the MoQers. I sympathize with your ontological dilemma. But I also think you've made some assumptions along the way that have compounded the problem and made the journey more agonizing than it need be. For example, you speak of the "mind/matter abyss" as a dualism you were aware of before calling it SOM .... > Not that I knew any SOM, it was the mind/matter abyss, > ourselves as isolated minds fundamentally alienated from other minds > and - most of all - from reality, only approaching "it" by way of > theories, that however close only were subjective descriptions > of an enigmatic something. I knew the impossibility of this dualism, > but it did not alleviate my oppression, it merely looked like an added > sadistic game that existence played with us. How did you know "the impossibility of this dualism"? Such knowledge could not have arisen from the experience of an "alienated mind". Certainly empirical evidence contradicts that conclusion. It must have been either a personal intuition or your exposure to idealistic philosophers. Whatever the source of this "dilemma", its resolution has obviously become your personal challenge. > Like a child playing with an ant not capable of understanding that > the huge shape above it was its tormentor. I wandered through > libraries and browsed through books in a search for some answer, > but no one seemed to care. I mean a lot of thinkers addressed the > M/M paradoxes and problems - the empiricists for instance - but > only like myself in a more abstract way, pointing to the strange > "thing in itself" world that we subjectively added qualities to. > The more modern philosophers that DMB promotes I hadn't > heard of, but they would not have helped, as said there's no lack > of "criticisms" of the mind/matter schism, but no one has identified it > as a metaphysics - as a SOM - entering history at a particular time. > Not until Robert Pirsig. This is a bit over the edge. The Yin and Yang of Taoism is a way of resolving the duality of nature by seeking balance between its polar opposites. Classical Idealism is a belief that the only existing substance is mental. Phenomenalism is the theory that representations (or sense data) are all that exist. Then, of course, there is pure objectivism which states that mind, values and ideas are all derivatives of matter. These are all monistic worldviews predating Pirsig's MoQ and Priday's Essentialism. Another misconception (in my opinion) is your insistence on the evolutionary development of intellectual ideas as if they were "existents", as, for example: > Most revealing for me was the section on how SOM emerged with > the old Greeks, IT HAD NOT EXISTED as SOM itself wants us > to believe "always, just for the Greeks to discover". Whatever the essence of Reality, it doesn't change simply because someone, at some particular time, posits it as a metaphysical thesis. Newton didn't "invent" gravity, nor did Einstein create relativity, nor is SOM Pirsig's conversion of subject/object duality. Theories merely reinterpret reality; they don't change it. However, I enjoyed reading 'Bodvar's Odyssey' and appreciated the opportunity to get a first-hand account of your struggle. I think we can all relate to your experience. Thanks, Bo. Ham Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
