Hi Bo,
On 15 Jul 2009 at 7:49, [email protected] wrote: > Hi Platt > > 13 July you wrote: > > > You say the MOQ is reality itself. But how can a metaphysics be > > reality itself? A metaphysics is a description of reality. As such > > it's a part of reality, not all of reality. For one thing a > > description of reality would leave out the describer. > I know I test your patience, but it's the heart of the MOQ. No test of patience other than my attempt to fully grasp your understanding of the MOQ. I think I get it in part. But some still escapes. Rather, I'm afraid I'm testing your patience. > You protest > the "MOQ being reality itself" assertion on the grounds that theories > are conveyed by language and language is subjective concepts in our > minds, different from reality it describes . But this is SOM - the MOQ > seen from the intellectual level - not intellect seen from the MOQ. OK, but right away I'm in trouble. When you say "intellect seen from the MOQ" you are in a SOM description that assumes a seer and a seen. Is there any way to express the MOQ has you "see it" without falling back into SOM? > SOM (intellect) forms everything in its S/O mold. If there isn't an > objective reality - described by a "describer" - then all is description, > all is language. It leaves no other alternatives WE must break out of > this S/O pattern to understand the MOQ. The said pattern is the > highest static value, but not reality itself. OK. But how do we break the S/O pattern and still describe the MOQ? > I had said: > > > Scientific theories can be presented as independent of the theory > > > and the latter-day Pirsig tries the same with the MOQ, as if he > > > accidentally discovered Quality's unique position, but as he > > > demonstrated in ZAMM (the Newton Gravity example) he Quality Reality > > > is the MOQ. Not as an idea in Pirsig's mind, but as the metaphysics, > > > wherever it had its origin. But didn't he say in that ZAMM passage that nothing exists except in the mind, making the Quality Reality ghost like all the other ghosts that comprise "the whole blessed world we live in." ?? > Platt: > > I need further explanation of this. Is the MOQ separate from the idea > > of the MOQ? > > I would drop ideas in the "concept ... in our mind" sense.when talking > about the MOQ because it invokes SOM's mind/matter split that the > MOQ rejects. OK, the MOQ is not a concept in our mind, although in the ZAMM passage Pirsig says, "The world has no existence whatsoever outside the human imagination." (I presume "imagination" here means "concept in our mind.) So if the MOQ is not a concept, it doesn't exist. Yet you say it does. You see why it gets confusing? > > If so, where does the idea of the MOQ fit into the MOQ? > > The MOQ as an idea belongs to intellect. The MOQ began as an > intellectual pattern but turned too unruly (dynamic) for comfort and tore > loose. . Can you expand on that concept? > > Or is paradox our lot in life when it comes to thinking about reality? > I don't see it as paradoxical unless we regard intellect in its SOM role > as shuffling around of ideas in our mind. It's MOQ role is the value of > the subject/object (mind/matter) DISTINCTION or AGGREGATE. OK. Let me try to summarize. The "Quality Reality" as you call it is a synonym for the MOQ. So concentrate not on what the MOQ says as a metaphysics. Instead, concentrate on what it points to -- a world of values, best understood not by words, but by pre-verbal direct experience. Some time ago I listed what I thought might be indications that someone was in "MOQ-Land." Please let me know iff any the following gets close to what you are driving at by restricting the intellectual level to SOL: You know you're in MOQ-Land: When you visit an art gallery. When you say, "That's class." When a poem touches your heart. When you hold a baby in your arms. When you go with your gut instinct. When you find meaning in mythology. When a chill goes down your spine. When you have a feeling of coming home. When you lose your sense of self while working. When you hear a jazz performer improvise. When you deliberately seek a break from routine. When you think, "There must be a better way." When you consider doing nothing a viable option. When a solution to a problem suddenly pops into your head. When you ponder the difference between a jelly glass and fine crystal. When you identify one who says "outrageous" as an armchair moralist. When on seeing a butterfly your think, "A nice biological value pattern." When you imagine that a gun pointed at you is an inorganic value pattern than can destroy all the values of your direct experience. Thanks, Bo. Platt Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
